Tuesday, May 22, 2007

Stupid Vegans

There are no other kind.

My husband groaned when I pointed out a couple weeks ago, the couple who starved their baby to death by refusing to give the baby protein. Stupid. And then there's the family who starved their toddler a few years back. My husband, the chiropractic physician, knew that the news was blog-worthy and I would, eventually, blog about it. "Please don't say vegans are stupid. Can you at least put it a nice way?" he urged. Well no, I can't. Actually, I had forgotten about the stupid vegan thing, but Glenn Reynold's post reminded me. He says he had a girlfriend who came down with Kwashiorkor from her vegan diet. Amusing and unsurprising.

One of my first patients in clinic was a stupid vegan. When I pointed out her leather shoes, she shrugged. The next week, she had on some plastic shoes. I told her that there was no way to stay healthy long-term by being vegan. She was a college student, a nice girl, but she was making herself increasingly sick with severe B vitamin deficiencies typical of long-term vegans and vegetarians. Her B vitamin deficiency was already contributing to an anemia that made her very sick when she menstruated. Eventually, she'd be that sick all the time.

"Have you seen one healthy vegan in your years of practice?" I asked my husband rhetorically. He knew the answer. We had treated one healthy vegetarian. She was very meticulous about her food pairings to get proteins. And she was healthy. One lady in ten years of practice.

Because we are in the "alternative health" field, we see more "alternative" lifestyles than the average health care practitioner. We see a lot of vegetarians and vegans. To a person, they are all marginally healthy. The vegans are sickly. Their bodies lack definition. Their demeanors lack vitality. Their skin is dull.

It serves no purpose to pretend that veganism is a healthy lifestyle choice. It's not. Eventually, the stores of vitamin B12 in their livers will be depleted and they'll descend into madness. More madness. I'm only slightly exaggerating. In addition to the B12 problem, they'll have problems with folate, too. (Another B vitamin.) It is important to supplement with both, when supplementing with one. A pregnant or nursing woman should never adhere to a vegan diet.

When a patient says she is a vegan, I ask if it's for health or philosophical reasons. If it's health, we go through the science and end the nonsense. If it's philosophical, I don't even bother. I recommend the supplementation, ask the patient to look at the research, and hope for the best.

A friend of a friend came to a birthday party with her waifish two year old. She was a hostile little girl who was clearly malnourished. (I'd be irritable, too, if I was hungry and lacking nutrients.) There was no convincing this woman to add protein to her child's diet. Her husband, an executive for Exxon, caused her no end of mortification. "What can I do? He works for an oil company," she explained when I commented that their lifestyle was owed to a big American business. Anyway, she was starving her children once weaned from breastfeeding.

Nina Planck writes about parents starving their children with veganism in her "Death by Veganism" op-ed in The New York Times:

Responsible vegan parents know that breast milk is ideal. It contains many necessary components, including cholesterol (which babies use to make nerve cells) and countless immune and growth factors. When breastfeeding isn’t possible, soy milk and fruit juice, even in seemingly sufficient quantities, are not safe substitutes for a quality infant formula.

Yet even a breast-fed baby is at risk. Studies show that vegan breast milk lacks enough docosahexaenoic acid, or DHA, the omega-3 fat found in fatty fish. It is difficult to overstate the importance of DHA, vital as it is for eye and brain development.
A good diet is simple, really, and most people know the answer. Fresh fruits, lots of them, vegetables, and some meat. At least nine ounces of red meat a week, is a good goal to shoot for. Eggs, cheese, light on the sugar, moderate on the alcohol and good fats. Babies need breast milk. After that, they need a balanced diet including protein.

I don't know what to think of the life sentences for the parents who starved their baby. I'm assuming it was from ignorance. While I'm happy that the sentence gets them beyond their child-bearing years, I'm not sure they fall into the same category as cold-blooded murderers. But the mother said that she loved her son and, "I did not starve him." Well, she clearly starved him. At six weeks old, he died being only 3 and 1/2 pounds. And that's a crime.


Anonymous said...

He says he had a girlfriend who came down with Kwashiorkor from her vegan diet. Amusing and unsurprising.

Only time I ever saw a case of Kwashiorkor (Biafra Belly) was when my mother died in '75. That was after six months of metted lung cancer and 24/7 chemotherapy vomiting.

But the mother said that she loved her son and, "I did not starve him." Well, she clearly starved him. At six weeks old, he died being only 3 and 1/2 pounds. And that's a crime.

Don't forget the mother's continuing self-congratulation endorphin rush from her Moral Superiority over Those Meat-Eaters.

Dr Demento used to play a single titled "Hitler was a Vegetarian". The song started out with a spoken intro:
"There are many sound reasons to be a vegetarian. Parading your Moral Superiority is not one of them."

Anonymous said...

One of my first patients in clinic was a stupid vegan. When I pointed out her leather shoes, she shrugged.

Sounds like an Eragon elf.

I'll accept the moral superiority of Vegans only after they've explained/bragged about their Veganism to the Kzinti. If they can convince the Kzinti (or a Jurassic Park Velociraptor), then I'll listen to them.

You see, to a carnivore and a predator (especially an aggressive one), there IS a word for those who eat plants: PREY.
Or, alternatively, MEAT.

Anonymous said...

What is the difference between a Vegan and a Vegetarian?

Antoinette said...

I am completely confused. There are soy formulas. People feed these to their babies all the time, it is not as good as breast milk of course but the baby doesn't starve. If these people were so concerned with animals well being why were they not using a soy formula? There is more to this story than meets the eye.

Melissa Clouthier said...

A vegan will not eat any form of meat or their by-products. No eggs (because they come from a live bird or could become a bird), no milk (because the facilities handling the animals are cruel), etc. Ovo-lacto vegetarians will eat eggs and milk. Some vegetarians will east some fish.

I'm not sure why the couple didn't use soy formula and chose straight soy milk. I'm sure there was some whey or something in the formula that was off-putting.

The healthy part of vegetarianism is the eating of more veggies and fruit and legumes. They just miss an important key. And many vegetarians don't touch junk food. But then there are those, who all they eat is junk because it's an easy way to avoid protein.

Anonymous said...

Thanks, I read some of the links you had there and I guess I've never really come across that before. Interesting and really scary. That poor little baby. Can you only imagine how miserable he must have been?

MaxedOutMama said...

If I'm going to hell, it will be because 26 years ago I worked with a woman who was a vegan, saw her stunted child, and didn't call the authorities. I thought about it, but I didn't. I might actually deserve hell for not doing it.

I don't understand how parents can do it, but having seen one of these children I wonder how the rest of us can tolerate it?

Anonymous said...

I once heard of a guy who ate meat and he died. Maybe you can ask your husband if you've ever seen any unhealthy carnivores.
But americans are sooo healthy, we silly vegans with our diets of vegetables and grains really need to follow their step. Of course, we're so blinded by our vitamin deficiencies that we don't realize how terribly sick we all are.

Melissa Clouthier said...

There is no question that meat eaters can be unhealthy too, for different reasons. Excesses can be just as fatal as deprivation. But Veganism is nutritional deprivation. It can be healthy for a time, if a person has other health issues. It can give the digestive tract time to heal, but long term, veganism is unhealthy.

Because people who choose the vegan lifestyle are relatively rare, these stories, thankfully, are rare. More common to our society is the national epidemic of diet related diseaes like heart disease, diabetes, etc. And there are parents who are abusive or criminally negligent that way, too. When I see hugely obese child, I see a family who needs help, too. Should the parent of a child who dies of a heart attack at ten due to a diet of Doritos and Pepsi be prosecuted, too? Maybe.

Conservation Cleatus said...

Parents who feed their child a vegan diet should be arrested for child abuse.

Anonymous said...

Firstly, soy milk and apple juice is NOT a vegan diet. There are of course vegans who eat potato chips and crackers which, like the standard American diet, is extremely unhealthy. But stories like this ignore the health risks associated with consuming animal products, such as heart disease (meat), severe allergies (milk), chronic ear and sinus infections (milk), colon cancer (meat), diabetes (meat) Crohn's disease (milk), e-coli (from manure), mad cow disease (meat), cholesterol (eggs) and much more scary stuff. The author cites nutritional information that has been proven inaccurate by unbiased scientific research, all of which indicates that a vegan diet is healthier than a non-vegan diet. You just need

The FDA and American Dietetic Assn state clearly that a vegan diet is healthy for all stages of life. The only reason someone would say vegan diets are unhealthy is because they either have ties to the meat/dairy/egg industry or are looking for an excuse to continue eating animal products. I would encourage the author and anyone else to do some thorough research on nutrition. May I suggest PCRM.org or the American Dietetic Assn (www.eatright.org) as starting points.

Anonymous said...

Don't be so quick to judge other people, especially when you don't know the facts. There is a strong possibility that the "vegan" infant who weighed 3.5 pounds when he died at age 6 weeks died as a result of prematurity and lack of health insurance. Notice that the press coverage didn't mention the gestational age of the infant? That's a warning sign right there. There have been other cases in which parents have been prosecuted for abuse, neglect, or homicide because of problems that turned out to be birth defects or hereditary disorders. Of course, people who can't afford medical care also can't afford good defense lawyers or expert witnesses to testify on their behalf. Also, do you really think that an African-American couple could get a fair trial in a moral panic case in a former Jim Crow state? But if you are the sort of person who blithely calls other people "stupid" because they follow dietary practices that date back to ancient Greece, then these possibilities would probably never occur to you.

beotchfromhell said...

this so called doctor isn't. they don't know jack about veganism and their information is a fraud. i don't even believe this concoction either.

it's just more anti vegan crap. nothing more, usually ignorant G.Ps and fathogs are prone to this.

i've been a vegan for nearly 30 years i have no idea what this crackpot is going on about.

what next? going to a funeral of a vegan waving a sign about how god hates vegans?


MLF said...

Stupid meat eaters. They are so egocentric and self-righteous just because eating meat is "normal". I'm vegan and guess what? I AM healthy and I have been without meat for 12 years, without other animal products for like 9 years. It is NOT hard to be vegan and be completely healthy. It's not hard to be a meat eater and be unhealthy. I love how everytime a vegan gets sick - it's automatically blamed on the diet - yet how many times are meat eaters going to defend their diet - even when facing illness? And even serious illnesses!!! They won't give up their meat and cheese even when facing triple bipass surgery or chemo for breast cancer.
I have a friend who had a baby a year ago and her baby was unable to digest cows milk (due to lactose intolerence - something that more than 50% of human beings are faced with) and she was unable to produce enough milk to breast feed her child (of course, no one would ever blame that on the fact that she ate meat and only meat most of the time). Guess what she was forced to do? Put her child on soy formula. Guess what that meant? Her child was being brought up VEGAN and the child's mother was everything BUT vegan.
I'll admit that there are stupid vegans out there but there are stupid people who eat meat too. Just because someone can eat a steak doesn't prevent them from neglecting their children. What about the epidemic of childhood type 2 diabetes and child obesity problems western countries are facing right now? Why is the diet of meat and dairy not questioned? What about the cases of early puberty and the connection between milk and toxins/carcinogens in beef to that? Are those parents intelligent, just because they consume meat?

I just want to point out that all too often - meat eaters take the two examples of vegan child neglect in the past ten years and blame it on the diet and make that a reason to bash veganism. The truth is, millions of kids are born vegan, grow up vegan with vegan parents every year. And they are healthy. Sure, some vegan children face health problems but then again - I had lots of health problems growing up and I ate meat and dairy. No doctor ever suggested to my parents that they take me off of cows milk - even though I had chronic ear infections (#1 sign of milk allergy) and asthma. Funny how those things cleared up after going vegan.
One of the reasons you don't see many healthy vegans in the doctors office is that MOST of us, have no reasons to go to the doctors. I refuse to go to a regular western doctor because they constantly tell vegans that they are going to die etc etc when we all know that isn't true. So on behalf of all the healthy vegans out there - DO YOUR RESEARCH. GET OFF YOUR HIGHHORSE.
I can't think of anything worse for humans than cows milk... It's not made for us, it has tons of growth hormones - even in the hormone additive free milk (duh - cows milk has hormones in it - even human milk has hormones in it - cows just have more growth hormones naturally because cows need to grow pretty big, pretty quick - UNLIKE HUMANS)(http://www.consumerhealthjournal.com/articles/milk-and-cancer.html). Many of the growth hormones in milk have been associated with cancer growth. I wish more people would research the foods they eat themselves, rather than attacking a diet they know NOTHING about. All too often - Western doctors think they are "nutritionalists" or dieticians YET I have NEVER had a doctor give me any real advice about food and diet (except for when they made stupid assumptions).

MLF said...

"Because people who choose the vegan lifestyle are relatively rare, these stories, thankfully, are rare. More common to our society is the national epidemic of diet related diseaes like heart disease, diabetes, etc"

So why don't you start a blog about this and start it off as "Stupid meat eaters"

long road to sanity said...

look, not all vegans are stupid. there is the odd case of a vegan who wears leather shoes, or is malnourished, or maybe is a bit scrawny. but it is not fare (doctor or not) to call all vegans stupid. and you know what, even if veganism was an unhealthy diet (which it isn't, by the way) then i would still refuse to eat meat. because unlike most people, almost 100% of all ethical vegans care about animal welfare and the environment, and would be willing to give up anything for it.

someone said...

Trying to to be ranty here..
But, honestly, do you see many healthy people on ANY diet in your practice? Why do you think you haven't seen healthy vegans? You are a DOCTOR, people come to you when they are SICK. Obviously, vegan or not, the people you see are not going to be healthy.
Most vegans research the nutritional aspect of their lifestyle before even beginning to be one. They take B12-fortified soy milk, eat a lot of vegetables to get calcium and iron. Normal vegan parents breastfeed their babies, and feed them pretty much the same as omnivorous babies. This is because babies can't digest animal products until they're about one, after they've been "introduced" slowly into eating them. What does this say about the nature of our digestive systems? It says we should not be eating animal products.
If the couple that starved their baby ate meat but still fed the baby the same food, no one would say anything like "stupid vegans", they'd say "stupid people".

This blog entry of yours was amusing, anyway. I do love to see people speaking from their limited personal experience as if they have done hours of research on the topic. You clearly haven't. The people you cite are obviously very stupid people, be they vegan or not. This does not mean all vegans are by any means stupid. The fact that you think that these THREE people are representative of the millions of vegans in the world (including traditional cultures in Asia that have been vegans for centuries) suggests that YOU are stupid.

Kasey said...

I had to reply because I am a healthy vegan who became vegan gradually by omitting animal products from my diet, starting at age 8. No one else in my family is vegan or truly vegetarian and I can respect that. I have a 1 yr old son who I am not raising vegan because I believe that he needs to be exposed to all foods while he is young to stay healthy and avoid allergies. He does, however, drink organic soymilk most of the time but his pediatrition said that this is fine. I nursed him for the first 12 months and just weaned him. He eats cheese sometimes, kalua pork and other animal products so I'm not worried about his malnutrition or developement of allergies. The funny thing is that often he will chose vegetables, legumes and grains over animal products! He does however like the Hawaiian, Filipino and Japanese meat dishes that his father eats and I cook sometimes, and I can't argue with that it's part of his culture. When he gets older my husband and I will allow him to make up his own mind as to whether or not he wants to eat animal products. My son hasn't gotten sick other than a small fever while teething which was easily broken in a few hours. I hardly ever get sick although I do think very carefully about what combination of proteins I eat. I must admit that before I gave up dairy about a year ago I did wear leather, however I have given it up since and I still think that it is very judgmental to call someone on something like that, they might have been a hand-me-down or faux leather, you never know these days. Your just jealous : ) Nah, jk. Aloha

Matthew said...

I am a Vegan, and I have had numerous doctors tell me that I am exceptionally healthy, even though I am 10lbs overweight. Did you hear that? 10lbs overweight!?!?! Even with a vegan diet it is possible to be overweight. I have lost very little weight since going directly from literally eating red meat every day to eating a healthy vegan diet. Since becoming I have noticed several changes... I no longer vegan get diarrhea, I no longer get colds, I no longer get the flu, I no longer get strep throat, I no longer get ear infections, I no longer have IBS, I no longer have acne, I no longer get cavities.

It seems unfair that you would generalize all vegans as unhealthy, and child abusers, when I guarantee that there are more child deaths based on overfeeding than the two in the past decade related to veganism.

You are a doctor that has obviously studied biology. Tell me then why all of our closest primate relatives are herbivores, and why you think that we are not. And don't say vitamin B12, because B12 can be found in bacteria that is healthy to eat, and can be found naturally in things like Kombucha, and other fermented foods.

Angel said...

I used to get sick all of the time before I went Vegan one year ago. In the past year I have been perfectly healthy; no colds, no flu, depression, or any of the other nasty stuff I used to deal with. Being Vegan improved my quality of life ten fold.
There's nothing healthy in cheese, milk, or meat that you can't get elsewhere...but there are all kinds of hormones any other gross poisons infused in said animal products.
When it comes ot this subject Dr. Melissa is clearly and uninformed DOUCHBAG.

mikonen said...

Well, vegans may be "healthy," but they also seem to get pissed off pretty easy. Maybe because you are hungry?

I lived with a vegan for about four months, it sucked. In my experience vegans tend to be moody as hell.

Tina Volpe said...

Since Dr. Melissa is so uninformed, I've forwarded her erroneous comments to informed physicians, Dr. John McDougall and Dr. Joel Fuhrman - who can refute the hell out of this ignorance. Will wait to hear from them.

I'm 53 - been vegan for over 10 years, vegetarian for over 30 years, and have not one single health problem (most 53 year olds statistically are on at least 3 different types of meds). I can tell you this, my physician marvels at my health and radiance and has gone vegan because of my success.

Ms. Melissa needs to do some serious research before spouting off mis-information!

Tina Volpe said...

For correct information, please see John McDougall, M.D.'s response here:

Holistic Journey said...

Healthy Vegans:


Fourth generation cattle rancher, now vegan:


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This comment has been removed by the author.
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rrrrrrrrrrrr said...

I have been a vegan since I was 12. I am now in my late thirties and I have NEVER had any health issues concerning my vegan diet. I have had two healthy children (who are not vegans, I chose to leave them to take their own choices). I don't care if the facts you presented are indeed true facts, you forgot to include the many vegans who lead normal, happy and healthy lives.

I have never rubbed my veganism in anyone's faces or tried to "convert" anyone. I only have a few vegan/vegetarian friends, the rest are omnivores. If I don't insult omnivores's beliefs, then why the hell do so many people feel the need to post articles pointing out how incredibly "stupid" me and people with similar dietary differences are.
Yeah, some vegans are stupid. Some people who run our countries are incredibly stupid as well! There are stupid people EVERYWHERE! Whether they're vegans, vegetarians, pescetarians or omnivores.

This article is complete BULL****!

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Anna said...

I'm a Vegan but, If I had a child It would be of the meat-eating, formula drinking kind and, I'd probably 'de-veanise' my lifestyle while pregnant.

No excuse for those deaths.

Patrick said...

I guess there must not be vegans competing at any level of professional sport then, much less all of them.

wenji said...

only privileged individuals with access to computers will the have choice to an all-vegan diet (supplemented with B12, vitamins & minerals or very carefully-planned out detailed to the bone diet) while millions are struggling to get their hands on whatever they can hunt or scavange in third-world countries, why don't you bring your veganism over there and see how warm your welcoming party will be?

Patrick said...

Good point. Only privileged individuals have access to health care, recycling, and clean drinking water, too. I'm giving those up until everyone can have them.

I'd list more things, but I have to go back to planning today's incredibly complex diet. Man, it's going to be really difficult to decide if I should have lunch at the Thai place or burritos. Ugh, and then when I get there, I have to plan to the bone all the work of saying, "No cheese, please".

I hope I have time at the end of the day to go through all the steps of taking my vitamin. I really envy you non-vegans, none of whom has to go through the hassle of popping one of those each and every single day.

Chris Spurrier said...

as a "physician" you should know that it has been well over a decade that scientists have concluded that vegetable protein is NOT second to the protein provided by consuming flesh, as was once thought. If someone is starving their child it has nothing to do with a vegan diet. it simply has to do with lack of food.

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Da Big Sho said...

I am so glad that you put out this blog... It shows people out there that people can be so stupid. I appreciate you being concerned about the two children that died at the hands of the stupid parents ( who just so happened to be vegan) but honestly how many are killed by meat eaters... too many to count huh. Well I am a vegan and I must say that I am in great shape... to each his or her own. But to make a blanket statement as such is just ridiculous. Please keep doing what you are doing though... it only makes us vegans look better.

John Lewis
Bad Ass Vegan

Vanessa Anne said...

I just want to put this out there, for all the soy-consumer soy-milk drinkers --- be careful. I wouldn't use soy if I had a choice, for my child, myself, or my husband, or anyone I love. If I used it, I'd use Organic (because it's commonly a GMO crop) - and I'd limit it to a "treat" --- I use almond milk when I want a non-dairy alternative. I get protein from other sources. I suggest looking into the safety of UNFERMENTED soy-based foods and those fake-meat-monstrosities found in the markets, before continuing to purchase them. They are essenetially highly processed plant-protein SLUDGE and fairly heinous at the least. oh, but they taste great!

They do have sprouted tofu & things like Tempeh - Good options for Vegans... MUCH better than unfermented products, because fermentation makes them easier to digest and ASSIMILATE... isn't that the point? Healthy assimilation into the body, right?


Julie said...

What a mis-informed article and a load of rubbish - you get protien from green leafy vegetables and most vegetables at that(only recently discovered). Animal protien (which was discovered in the early 1800's) is contributing to a lot of sicknesses we see today from cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc and it has been proved and studied that in avoiding meat and dairy in ones diet you can eliminate and at times reverse these sicknesses. Get informed and educate yourself.

Squid Syndicate said...

Ha ha So a handful of vegans do something really stupid (like starving their baby) and you arrive at the conclusion that ALL vegans are stupid. Do you have any idea how many omnivores have done similar things.

Anyway, your not even a real doctor. Chiropractors are a joke. You don't have patients, you have SUCKERS.

Dierdre said...

Most vegans are not pasty wimps...THIS vegan can kick your ass. I am 40 years old but look much younger, thin (not skinny), in excellent shape and health. I almost never get sick even when everyone around me does. Although I don't concern myself with what others think about my lifestyle, it made me laugh and laugh to hear this snake-oil saleswoman spouting off her ignorant and uninformed opinions, ad nauseum.

So a couple of irresponsible people accidentally starved their child; that has nothing to do with veganism. I see countless morbidly obese parents turning their children into walking time-bombs of diabetes, heart disease, stroke, cancer.......but let's just bash the people who we feel threatened by. Why are so many people so threatened by veganism and those of us who choose this compassionate and healthy lifestyle?

susan said...

I am a 53 yr old vegan (vegetarian for 14 yrs, vegan for 4 now) & I have never felt better....both physically & morally.I work as a paramedic in a physically demanding job . I really think you should do more research on this topic before slandering people who only want to do the right thing....show compassion for all living things.
I get plenty of protein (just not via meat & dairy) & take a B12 supplement. I do not consume the antibiotics, growth hormones, pesticides etc that you do as a meat/dairy eater.
I have to go now...I am just too weak from lack of protein to continue.....YEAH RIGHT!

SmarterCE.com said...

How did the parents not give a baby protein? Was it a water diet? Every living thing has protein in it. I will give you my name Michael Blott, D.C. and I am vegan. Never sick, plenty of energy. I do it for ethical reasons but I think at the very least most people should drastically reduce the amount of animal protein they consume. One reason is the accumulated toxins, hormones and pesticides that you get from eating from the top of the food chain. Now as as a physician you have access to the medical library. Try to find a verified case of protein deficiency in a first world country. There are many sickly Vegans, vegetarians as well as meat eaters because they have a poor diet. Eliminating meat does not make a diet good if all you are doing is eating pasta and candy. Eating a variety of colorful vegetables makes it impossible to be protein deficient if you get enough calories. It has been a while since I have found a doctor that thinks protein as only coming from meat.

Tara said...

The good "doctor" wrote:

""Have you seen one healthy vegan in your years of practice?" I asked my husband rhetorically. He knew the answer. We had treated one healthy vegetarian. She was very meticulous about her food pairings to get proteins. And she was healthy. One lady in ten years of practice."

Um, has it occurred to you that with your special attitude and bias based on ignorance that the healthy vegans (particularly the *mentally* healthy ones) don't return to your practice for you to ever see them STAY and BE healthy?

Way to use circular logic to prove you (lack of a) point.

What a load of garbage.

Marci said...

The deep satisfaction of choosing a vegan diet gives piece of mind in knowing that you are making morally and ethically sound choices for your planet everyday. This freedom from guilt also quells the mind from thinking that it is unsatisfied and is therefore constantly searching for outside methods to soothe a lack of fulfillment. Our consumer society creates needs instead of fulfilling them. Unhealthy food creates the same unsatisfied sensation felt by the general public. This sensation is destabilizing in the long run and increases obesity because people keep trying to orally fulfill the unsatisfied desire coming from bad food, a conflicted conscience over animal anguish, and a besieged society. After much deliberation, I conclude that this is the moral and ethical choice which is healthier for the consumer, animals, and the Earth. 

JFIllustrations said...

What vile and irresponsible misinformation! I've been vegan for 5 years, and I am the healthiest person among co-workers, friends, and family who are all non-vegan. I donated blood the other day, and they said it was so good, they wanted me to come back as soon as I was able to. I've also had a full blood work test done to disprove ignorant and uneducated people like yourself - let me tell you, all my ranges were normal (or as the doctor that doesn't know I am vegan said " close to perfect"). The only brute here is the person that doesn't take the time to actually research the information that they put forth as factual - in this case, you. I know plenty of vegan mothers and their children are healthy. So, you see ONE news article about some person that didn't take care of their child and happened to be vegan and you assume it is the same for every other vegan? What about all the non-vegans that abuse their children? Does that mean that you abuse your child also because ONE person wrote an article about ONE couple? It is sad that because of irresponsible, ignorant, and hateful people like yourself, lies continue to spread about a lifetsyle that involves nothing but compassion, takes morality into account, and speaks up for the billions of animals that live and are slaughtered horrifically AND the millions of starving people that die because YOU take the food that could feed them to feed the farm animal that you just can't live without and will probably give you diabetes, heart-disease, and cance. We also call for a healthier planet. Instead of spreading lies - I think you need to buy a book and educate yourself. I find your assumptions and misrepresentation of vegans pathetic and a lame excuse to keep taking part in cruel and selfish practices. Good luck to you. I hope your followers have some kind of brain to see past your lies. PS... EVERYTHING has protein and it has been disproved that you have to match foods to get enough of it. Also, the American Dietetic Association has published a paper that says vegan diets are healthy in all stages of life. I could go on and on, but I think you would be better off doing your own research/reading a book.

Vanilla Rose said...

Are you for real?

Mozybyte said...

Here's the crux of this idiotic squib...
"We are the measure of ourselves" and what better to see who wrote it but by the tittle...
Give a Typewriter to a “Stupid” Dangerous Ignorant and before you know it, it will go open its mouth and swallow it...

Vanilla Rose said...

@ The first anon: actually, Hitler wasn't a vegetarian.

Reading this vegan-hating garbage has done one good thing: inspired me to check out my next available blood donation session. Yup, vegan 19 years, blood donor, doing a sponsored swim, not wearing leather shoes.

Una Rose said...

I'm a strict vegan, healthy, happy, well, smart, have two happy healthy children and don't wear leather, fur etc.

What you are raging against seems to be child abuse as these cases obviously were. That's understandable. Child abuse is a horrible tragedy but please don't blame vegans or veganism.

Sane loving vegan parents raise sane healthy happy children. Children that are starved to death are victims of child abuse, not veganism.

Blaming these crimes on veganism especially as a doctor is just keeping the world in the dark about the proven health benefits of the vegan diet, confuses the issue of child abuse and that doesn't seem that good or smart to me.

vɹegan said...

Wow, talk about misinformed and mean. I was vegetarian for 8 years and now vegan and I haven't had better check ups. Seriously, with your logic I can say all meat eaters are fat and are killing their children. And don't forget all the meat eating serial killers. You eat meat, right? So, I guess you're a killer. Now that's stupid.

Quintessence Challis said...

Wow, are you serious? This must be a joke. How utterly misinformed.

I've been a very healthy vegan for 20 years now and can honestly say that the healtiest people I know by far are either vegans or strict vegetarians.

My most recent book has a 2-week plan in it and every single meat eater who did my VEGAN program came out healthier, happier, and with brighter, more glowing skin.

Just because there are a few misinformed, unhealthy vegans in the world doesn't mean we are all that way. There are far more unhealthy meat eaters, but they are not scrutinized as their diet is the norm in our society.

Please consider doing some research that isn't funded by the Dairy or Meat Council.

Quintessence Challis said...

p.s. I also have a very healthy almost 8-yr-old daughter who has been vegan all her life. She doesn't suffer the chronic sicknesses I endured as a child (I was raised on a standard meat diet), which is a huge relief.

Incidentally, my midwives pronounced me in excellent health all throughout my pregnancy (I didn't even take prenatals) with high levels of iron and all other nutrients.

Greg said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Greg said...

Melissa we can obviously go back in forth all day. I will put my 7-year vegan health up against yours and your husband’s meat eating health any day of the week. If you are so sure I am unhealthy fly me to Texas and pay for the test. I find it kinds funny you wont post a full body picture of yourself in your profile. You are obviously a little over weight. And I think your bad hairstyle is covering up your reciting hairline. Your skin looks dull and damaged. Maybe from years of too much cover up.....You'll probably ignore this but how can you sleep at night being a doctor in Texas? The obesity epidemic has strong roots there and it
Sounds to me like you aren't helping out one bit. Maybe that is how you make money you miss-inform people have them develop disease then treat them.
While I think the lady who starved her baby was an idiot. You can’t condom a whole movement because of a few miss informed people. That would be like reading what you say and then saying all doctors are dumb. Because Let me tell you I know this isn’t true. There are some amazing doctors here in NYC that are all about veganism.

aran said...

I had to comment on this blog post as it demonstrates a derisory level of basic logic. The baby did not die because it was vegan, it died because the parents didn't feed it properly. As anyone with even a child's level of comprehension will understand correlation does not imply causation. The authors writing style and substance has all the hallmarks of the worst kind of tabloid journalist.

The authors inability to look at evidence objectively, instead seeking personal anecdote is astonishing for a so-called doctor. This incredible level of base argument can simply be countered by another's personal experience. In my case, for example, I know a number of vegans, vegetarians and meat eaters. All the veg/vegans are healthier than meat eaters.

The authors viewpoint is clearly based on ill-founded arguments and self-righteous arrogance as it lacks evidential basis and differs significantly from mainstream up-to-date scientific opinion. For those interested in the mainstream consensus, The American Dietetic Association's position paper on vegetarian diets puts it well noting that well planned vegan diets are appropriate for all ages (including babies and children). It further notes that well planned vegan diets provide health in the prevention and even the cure of certain diseases.

Does the above demonstrate that everyone must eat a vegan diet – no it doesn't. But does this demonstrate that the author displays all the intellect of a ill-informed, somewhat deranged, inaccurate quack – absolutely it does! To used her own unimaginative terminology she is 'stupid'.

Shelley said...

Wow. It's shocking to see a "professional" generalizing, name-calling and making so many assumptions about all vegans. Really? Kind of hard to take that behavior seriously. I'm a happy, healthy vegan. I don't wear or use any animal products as they are insanely cruel. People tell me all the time that I look better than ever and my skin looks amazing and I look younger and say it must be my diet, which it is! I look better now than I did ten years ago. My friends have a beautiful nine-year-old daughter who's been vegan all of her life. She loves it and is healthy and, like me, gets her protein from nuts, beans, legumes and soy to name a few. Its shocking that a doctor is making statements about something she's so ignorant about. I am proud to be a healthy and compassionate consumer and feel sorry for those who mindlessly eat antibotic-, hormone- and pesticide-filled crap (meat and dairy) and are developing the diseases that take so many Americans to early graves: heart disease, high cholesterol, atherosclerosis, diabetes, obesity and osteoporosis to name a few...diseases I will probably never have. Read "The China Study" and educate yourself before you make yourself look bad again.

Warren said...

Wow. So much misinformation, mistruth, distortion and lies in one post, I scarcely believe you really have a doctorate in anything at all. Certainly, you have never done any basic research other than reaching into your own prejudices. Others have all ready put your arguments to the torch, but I am amazed that someone that waves the "Dr" term at the top of the blog so vainly could possibly be so ill-informed. Maybe next time you should read a few medical or research journals, do a few basic web searches, or actually inform yourself about basic human biochemistry etc before publishing these ridiculous rants?

bkind2nmals said...

How can this person claim to be educated by making all these false assessments of vegans and our lifestyle? I have two extremely healthy vegan children--10 months and 5 years old. They are not lacking ANY nutrients in their diet. They eat well-balanced, healthy food and they are not underweight or overweight--just perfect. I am disappointed to see someone calling themselves a "doctor" shamefully disseminating false information about the VERY healthy vegan diet. Why aren't these "doctors" concerned about the sickly, lethargic, lazy, OBESE carnivorous children who are being fed by clowns named Ronald? I think the fast food nation we live in should be ASHAMED at the crap that is fed to our children. It is plainly CHILD ABUSE!!! But, since the crap is wrapped in pretty paper and served by a clown on an in-house playland, then it is widely accepted by the masses. Give me a break! Vegans are superior. Simple fact. They think before they eat and they eat like they give a damn--most others don't.

Murugu said...

You dont have to be vegan, vegetarian, carnivore or an omnivore to read something like this and realize how stupid and ignorant this blog sounds.

For the record I am a omnivore.

David Raza said...

Few doctors would ever advocate Veganism. Why? Because if more people were Vegan, no-one would ever go and see them because they wouldn't be sick, and therefore all the money they receive for prescribing ever more expensive drugs would be gone.

Seriously, whoever you are, this story is the most biased piece of shit writing I have ever read. The reason Vegans scare doctors is because most Vegans do research. They know the truth about how doctors make their money off people being sick. DO you seriously expect anyone with more than 2 brain cells to think that most doctors are in the business of medicine to heal people? Where are all the magical cures? Why would any pharma company cure a disease when it makes no business sense to do so. Rather come up with long term 'treatments' that guarantee an ongoing income stream.

This article should be renamed to :


My shit has more nutrition in it than any meal with antibiotic, growth hormone laden flesh and dairy.

Kiss my Vegan Ass...

JRH said...

I find it hard to believe you are a doctor. The way you refer to protein as something that only comes from meat is downright false. There are many sources of protein. Many of which are vegan and include no unwanted fats and accessories as meat is often paired with. You are not versed on foods and diets. This post is an embarrassment.

ElocinKeramok said...

Not all vegans are alike.

Just as dairy and meat eaters suffer from diseases caused by their consumption of animal products, vegans who don't do the research on how to be healthy while being vegan will also suffer.

I have personally known many vegans and they have all been totally gorgeous and lively! So when I read people talking about frail and sickly vegans I have no clue where they're coming from. Since becoming vegan I have lost weight, I've had MUCH more energy, and my skin is MUCH healthier (I had very dry skin and acne - not a pimple since and my skin is as smooth as a baby's bottom!). I just in general feel sooo much healthier and wish I had known more about veganism sooner.

I'm no doctor... but for me, my personal experiences speak louder than any stories about a couple of vegans. And giving a *very poor* example of a vegan couple who ended up killing their baby is just a totally idiotic way of trying to get everyone against vegans. Of course there are crazy vegans, but you can't just group them all together like that.


Health conscious vegans typically get most of their B-12 from nutritional yeast. Maybe you should suggest that to your patients instead of immediately disrespecting their philosophies and suggesting they throw them all out the window.



Snape said...

If you honestly believe that eating meat is "unhealthy" then you're a fool.

If you believe in evolution in any form, then it's impossible for you to believe that our bodies were not designed to consume meat. Early peoples - and for thousands and thousands of years, ate what they could hunt or gather - animal flesh, nuts, vegetables, some fruits.

Take a gander at the paleo diet. Heart disease, diabetes, etc. are a result of abuse of the insulin system. Eating white carbs, ie Rice, breads, grains, etc. Our bodies did not evolve to eat this type of food - look at the glycemic load of the majority of foods an average person consumes. You're destroying your insulin system and making yourself insulin sensitive.

Guess what insulin does? Regulates the storage of fat cells within the body!

Quit being so full of yourselves.

Eating a healthy amount of FREE RANGE, grass fed meat that isn't treated with hormones is perfectly healthy. Add in a good amount of fresh vegetables, some fruits, and you're set.

I've lost 33lbs eating about 1.7lbs of lean meat coupled with vegetables a day, and seen more gains muscularly and with my endurance than I have ever eating any type of diet - and I've tried vegan, vegetarian, modern, etc.

Eat meat. eat vegetables. Don't eat anything else, including processed stuff - fake sugars, sugar, grains, etc.

We are not meant to eat that.

William said...

LOL this melissa chick is a joke. no way are you a doctor. I am a happy and healthy vegan male who is strong and virile. I am 190 pounds of pure lean muscle and I am stronger and faster than most other men who eat an healthy diet composed of animal products. Such a silly article filled with misinformation. Humans are not carnivores, this is a fact that has been proven. Even is humans were designed to eat meat, surely it would not be from poor animals tortured in factory farms. Matter of fact, to all you meat eaters, I CHALLENGE YOU TO GO CAPTURE YOUR NEXT MEAL OF MEAT BY YOURSELF AND EAT IT. AT LEAST BE A REAL MAN AND GO HUNT, BUT NO YOU'LL PROBABLY RELY ON THE FACTORY FARMS TO GET YOU YOUR MEAL. THATS WEAK.

alivav2 said...

You're wrong. I can't even begin to describe how ridiculously wrong you are. I've been a vegan my WHOLE life, i'm 26, and i am completely healthy. Most of my friends are vegans and they feel it's the way to live. Hundreds of celebrities are also vegans, along with children. The parents who "starved" the baby must have abandoned it, because my parents raised me vegan and I was a cute, healthy, chubby baby. I don't give two shits what you write back to me because I couldn't be persuaded to be a disgusting, idiotic, brain-dead omnivore for my life.

Jess said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Radiolucas said...

@ William

Noone ever said that humans were carnivores. Omnivores yes, carnivores, no.

Challenge? Sure - fish, easy - maybe a quail or two but I am pretty sure that if you want more meat you will probably need something bigger and guessing at the menagerie around me, I suspect that eating the neighbourhood pets WILL get me into trouble.

Real men eat whatever they like. I used to be vegetarian for 12 years and I understand where you come from - but CHOOSING not to eat meat is a social choice, that you should be happy to have had the CHOICE to be. I think the point the writer tries to make is that vegans and vegetarians (but more vegans) have to be careful with their diets. Thats all.

Most of the rest of the planet doesn't live with such niceties - try living in SEast asia and if you say "I am vegetarian" to a poor person, they look blankly at you and ask: "Are you training to be a monk?" Fun eh? They don't even realise the prawns are meat too. BIzarre.

I like eating meat and although I am not comfortable with the fact that we have to slaughter animals on such a large scale, I am happy to slaughter, dress, cook and eat my own.

Putting some sort of moral superiority on your individual choice is a bit weak.

Questions everything said...

Ok, this person is incredibly uniformed, but so are all you vegans who claim meat is unhealthy. Me thinks some of you have watched 'Supersize Me' one too many times. Well, alot of that movie is utterly wrong. First off, people evolved to be omnivores. There's a reason for that. Secondly, all this stuff about fats and stuff is total crap. People do need some fat in your system. It keeps your body insulated, and your fat cells are used to store energy. Then you have this deal with carbs. Carbs from fruits and veggies are good, but you also have to take in account that humans were not meant to run on grains, as the US gov. says we really need. That would be birds. I have more to say, but not right now. I believe people can live normal and healthy lives being Vegans, but people can also do the same with meat. In fact, there was a follow up of Supersize Me called 'Fat Head'. In it, the man decides to do almost exactly the same as Morgan Spurlock, but proves you can actually lose weight and lower bad colesterol on a fast food diet. And you know what? He did. In fact, he lost weight over three times faster eating the fast food diet than Morgan Spurlock did when he returned to his girlfriend's vegan diet. It's not about fatty foods, it's about eating the foods that are going to keep your metabolism up.

Sorry to be so long, but in closing, you can be healthy either way. The problem is people who are vegans and think they are 'morally superior'. You're not. There is nothing morally better about being vegitarian or vegan than being a person who eats meat. Guess what. There are animals that eat plants, and animals that eat meat. We just happen to be animals that can eat both. That's right. People are animals just like dogs, cats, monkeys, etc... You are not condoning murder by eating meat. Murder is defined as the illegal killing of another person. First of all, for the most part, killing animals is not murder. Secondly, and this goes to all you religious people, nearly every holy book out there actually condones and supports killing. Anyone who says otherwise needs to re-read their particular book. So lets review. People are animals just like the others on the planet, and killing animals is not murder. So those of you who do think you're morally superior, please tell me why. I'd love to hear whatever reason your imagination has come up with.

Nicole said...

Ha! All this from a chiroprator....hilarious! Sorry, not a "doctor" or any other health professional qualified to give dietary advice.

Andrew said...

I have no doubt that there are those that can tollerate a meticulously planed and implemented vegan diet,

even thrive on it, and that there are also very many more who cannot, that's called genetic diversity.

If you consider our species evloutionary development, you might reason that early humans new nothing of

micro or macro nutirents...they ate what was available to them.
No consideration was given to vitimin content, RDA's or saturated fat levels.
They simply ate what was available, if it tasted good and was in large supply they would probably gorge

themselves, irrespective of wether the food stuff was fruits, berries, nuts, honey or animal products.
if we had evloved as vegans or vegetarians we would have missed out on a very nutrient and calorie dense

foodstuff, and it's probable we would not have survived as a species...at least not in our current form.
Animal products would have filled in many nutriional gaps in the early human diet that early human would have

been blissfully unaware of.
Early man would not have been able to meticulously plan their diets to avoid nutritional deficiencys that only

existed because they chose not to eat meat, they had neither the knowldege, the time or the resources to do


It's speculated that one factor that allowed for the expansion in size of the human brain was the ingestion of

large quantitys of fatty acids from the ingestion of fish and meat, but perhaps it was due to their need to

calculate if they had ingested the correct balance of aminoacids and B complex vitimins....you decide.
Early man could really have used a good PC and some nutritional software.

One thing you can be sure of is that over the vast majority of human evolution we ate very little in the way of

grains and legumes as these food stuffs require cooking to make them edible to humans, so no soya, no

wheat, no beans, no oats, no rice.
They also wouldn't have consumed dairy products, we wouldn't gain acces to them untill we started to
keep domesticated animal some 7,000 - 10,000 years ago.

While it's possible they may have eaten some sprouted grains they still wouldn't have made up a significant

part of mans diet prior to the argicultural revolution about 10,000 years ago. And spouted grains are very

diffrent nutritionally from the gains themselves.
The best estimates as to when man began cooking foods is around 40,000 years ago...thats a drop in the

ocean in evolutionary terms.

A recent study used radio isotope tests on the remains of humans who lived around 28,000 years ago in the

area now known as croatia, these tests determined that this groups diet consited largly of meat and very little


Andrew said...

We cannot rewrite human evolutionary histroy because some people have a moral objection to eating meat,

is it no more morally wrong for man to consume animal flesh then it is for a wild chimpanzee to kill and eat a

colobus monkeys, or wolves to eat a caribu, it is simply in their nature to eat the foods they are best evolved

to eat, there is no question of morality, morals are a human construct, they also prone to change and evlove over time, depending on the fasions and polotics of thoes times.

Animal suffering is a diffrent matter and I would agree that should be minimised wherever and whenever

possible, ethical consideration aside, caged, stressed animals produce poor meat with a greater degree of

satuarted fat and a poor balance of omega 3 - 6 fatty acids.
Animals that are kept in conditions approximatng that that they would have lived in in the wild produce better

healthier, leaner meat.
Animal cruelty is the product of intensive farming practises and that is bad news for both the animals and

those consuming their meat, hight staurated fat levels, use of synthtic hormones and chemicals introduced in

the processing of the meat all contribute to making some meat far less healthy then it should be.
This is not a reason to avoid meat, but to avoid intensivly farmed and processed meats.
You don't boycot the eating of fruits or vegetables becuase some are treated with pesticides, you either

purchase organically grown items or make sure you wash them damn throughly before use.

That it's entirly possible with some thought and effort for some poeple to exist on a vegan diet does not in anyway prove that it is suitable for the vast majority of people, we typically hear from a small hardcore of long term vegans, who state that they have never felt better.
In the same way as the chap down the pub tells of his grandfather who smoked 80 cigertettes and consumed a bottle of scothch every day and who lived to be 102...and only died when he was shot dead by a jealous husband.
It does happen, there will always be those who are less/more genetically predisoded to cetain conditions who fall on either side of the bell curve. It's cannot be considered proof of anythig by any stretch of the imagination.
And of course there is some selection bias going on here as it is far less likley for people who were vegan and stopped due to problems to to come forward and state there case then for the vocal hardcore vegan faction.

The general scientific consesus is that man is an omnivore, that's the way we evolved, thats the easiest way to ensure you have a reasonable chance of meeting your nutrional requirements, if you enjoy a challange by all means become a vegan...just don't impose it on others such as small children or pets.

Tan said...

I was referred here by someone who hates vegans. So it's only fair that I stop by and say that I'm another healthy vegan.

One of my doctors kept asking me why the hell am I in his office, and I simply just told him that I simply want a check up. I'm watching my nutrients, vitamins, and minerals. I'm working out each day. You know what: Everyone should do that, vegan or not.

I also love my non-vegan friends and they, me. Basically, we don't hate each other and make ignorant and blanket statements online.

One more thing: I love nutritional facts.

Quick list of my own nutritional resources:
Dr. Joel Fuhrman
Dr. Dean Ornish
Dr. John McDougall
Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn
Dr. Michael Greger
Vesanto Melina, MS, RD
Brenda Davis, RD
Many non-vegan nutritional sources
And many vegan and non-vegan athletes

baconfairy said...

Actually, it's starting to be considered child abuse, in some places, if you feed your child soy formula, or soy at all, because there are chemicals in soy that mimic estrogen, and can mess with the baby's hormones. Little boys, for example, will start forming breasts because of the chemical present. Soy can mess a developing child up, although it's good for a woman who is past her baby-making prime and needs the estrogen boost.

EmmaMau5 said...

Wow, some of the people here that commented are extremely ignorant. And especially the person who wrote the piece, I don't think that it's very professional to call your patient a 'stupid vegan', you should be sacked. But anyway, I am a vegan, and I am a lot healthier that when I wasn't but the point is, I do not go and judge other people's diets, nor should ye judge mine. People need to accept that not everyone in the world has the same views, values and opinions. The death of the baby is very tragic but it does give people who are vegans bad publicity but, we aren't all like that. I have a daughter who eats a little bit of all the food groups, but when she's old enough to decide, the choice is hers and I'll support her whichever path she takes. Oh, and I am not gaunt or unhealthy or pale, I'm healthier than I ever have been, some vegans look after themselves, some vegans don't and eat very badly. I'm sure there is also many gaunt and pasty meat eaters out there. Rant over.

sylvia said...

This author is extremely biased and uninformed, and insulting. Hate to break it to you, but my children, who were all breastfed and who have all been raised on a healthy vegan diet - with a wide variety of fresh fruits, vegetables, grains, seeds and legumes - have all been diagnosed as above average in intelligence. They have never been malnourished under my care or underweight.

Our 'diet'?

apricots, apples, pears, grapes, bananas, loquets, fejoa's, watermelon, cantaloupe, honeydew melon, avocado's, kiwifruit, ruby grapefruit, lemons, blueberries, strawberries, raspberries, tomatoes, dates, sultanas, etc... celery, broccoli, brussels sprouts, cabbage, zucchini, sprouts, cauliflower, sweet potato, potato, pumpkin, peas, asparagus, spinach, beetroot, corn, carrot, lettuce, radish, onions, garlic, bok choy, silverbeet, artichoke, green beans, snow peas... chic peas, kidney beans, rice, pasta, millet, quinoa, oats, spelt etc... Marmite, Saunders malt extract, peanut butter, tahini, rice syrup, maple syrup, chocolate spread, sunflower spread... dandelion tea, peppermint tea, camomile tea, licorice tea, camomile and spearmint tea, hot chocolate, soy milk, coconut cream, rice milk etc... pine nuts, cashews, walnuts, macadamias, almonds, brazil nuts, ground linseed, olive oil, pumpkin seeds, sunflower seeds etc...

We have fresh salads, lasagne, stir fry's, burgers, pancakes, country stew, soups, cakes, cheeses, mousse's, dips, cream cheeses, sausages, hot dogs, pies, pasties, tabbouleh, potato salad's, spaghetti, fruit salads, marinated tofu and veges, salad sandwiches, jelly's, halvah, potato cakes, hot chips, crisps, corn chips, nacho's, souvlaki's, felafel rolls and balls, samosa's, norri rolls, san chow boy, cheesecake, date and walnut loaf, hedgehog, donuts, cookies, chocolates, savory muffins, Maggi noodles, coleslaw, baked potato, fried rice, idle, yoghurt, rice balls, baked veges, spring rolls, pizza, sesame rolls, dumplings, wontons, tempeh, miso, foccasia, daal, english muffins, sultana bread, houmous, baba ganouch, quiche,onion cakes, hash browns, etc...

Does this really sound limited to you?

We know where our calcium comes from, and our B12, omega 3's, iron and protein. And we get it.

A meat eater is more likely to be deficient in calcium, and in iron, than a non meat eater.

My brother, who does not eat meat, donates blood regularly - something he would not be able to do if he were deficient in iron.

Get your facts straight before you start slandering and bashing other people. Most vegans, and vegetarians happen to be very well informed when it comes to nutrition - most meat eaters are not!

Kita Lowrey said...

A 25 year vegan diet nearly killed me and it was crippling my husband. Facing the fact I had been wrong about what a real healthy diet is was humiliating. Most of the vegans who have their health fail won't admit it. And I don't blame them.

I wrote a blog post about why I changed my diet for my friends and family and some of them (the vegans) were really offended. It was like I had told them God is dead.

Vegans aren't stupid, they are usually well meaning idealistic people without an understanding of real cellular physiology.

inkochanrocks said...

I am a vegetarian, an animal rights activist and so are all of my family. My grandmother is vegan and has been for 50 years as have my uncle. Stupid? I think not. There is no heart disease where there was 50 years ago thanks to our diet and minimal excercise. Go stuff your meat proteins! You can fully supplement a diet with non-dairy and meat products and i think you are stupid for not considering that. There are always a few nut jobs out there who starve their children. Plenty more who eat meat and starve their kids. As far as im concerned if a woman doesn't breastfeed her child there is a large risk of malnourishment, the same as any animal.

Think before you post.

Hubbyyy said...

Look Vegans/Vegetarians, it isn't about whether or not you are healthy but the logical reasons why you chose that certain diet. Is it to stay healthy? There's are very other productive ways to stay healthy and still be able to consume meat and other things.

Children and families across the world would kill to have meat in their diet. Why? Because it is a delicacy to those who are grateful and a nutritional benefit.

Don't forget that this topic also does not call out current long-term vegans. I believe this is calling out those "vegans" that think it's cool and mainstream. I know plenty and they get sick because they do not know how to properly care for themselves. If you or someone you know are healthy vegans, then good for them. You are ACTUALLY loyal to the plan and take care of yourselves well. I still don't know what that will do for the rest of the world.

These things can apply to meat eaters too. We can still gobble up meat, but if we take care of ourselves, we can definitely stay healthy.

As for the philosophy part? Please enlighten me what cause you are successfully supporting.

Hubbyyy said...

The reason Vegans scare doctors is because most Vegans do research. They know the truth about how doctors make their money off people being sick.
Lol whut? I'm pretty sure there are more meat-eating researchers than vegans.

And doctors already get plenty of money from people who are victims of other diseases... like STDs? Cancer? Common cold? Etc? Don't be so closed minded. Helping someone who is a victim of improper dieting isn't rocket science either. If a vegetarian becomes ill due to lack of nutrition, it's their choice to go to the doctor rather than Google some solutions.

tahir said...

It is clearly proven that well balanced vegan diet is healthier than non veg diet. You just have to do some research before switching to vegan diet because nutrition is the only knowledge that is not given in schools. In veganisim, you learn more about nutrition than non veg. For example, many non veg dietitians don't even know that many plant based food come with complete protein such as hemp seeds, soy, quinoa, and sweet potatoes.

Rachel Matsuo said...

Do you know how dairy is made? Cows are raped and made pregnant and then the baby gets taken away to become veal. While the mother is crying for her lost child, we humans take her milk to drink and put into our cereal. Meat is disgusting just the same. These unhealthy vegan stories are myths to keep the meat and diary industry alive and running. If veganism is so unhealthy then why are there countless peoples around the world thriving off of grains and vegetables because meat is too expensive? Are they unhealthy as well? Is it so crazy that an individual capable of critical thinking chooses not to live off of others suffering? If meat is so healthy then why is America infamous for people dying of heart related illnesses? Diabetes? Please do more research before you go and criticize people who are educated on the facts and choose not to live in ignorant bliss.

Jughead Jones said...

God, this Melissa woman is stupid as f0ck!

Questions everything said...

Except for the fact that Meat doesn't cause Heart Disease. In fact, meat and fat are quite healthy. It is things like grains and sugars that cause Heart disease and diabetes. Unlike what the FDA and USDA (bought and paid for by Big Ag) tell you, the human body is supposed to run on meat, not carbs. Meat actually curbs apetite and fuels your body more efficiently. However, when you carb up, your body needs to work off the sugar those carbs break down as, because it is toxic. The appropriate levels of sugar in your blood should be 1/2 tsp. the guidelines given by the government will put 1 1/2 CUPS of sugar or more into your blood daily. Anyone who studied biology in high-school can tell you the same.

Questions everything said...

Maybe you're the one that needs to get informed. Our bodies are made to run on meat and animal protein. The reason our bodies switch to burn carbs (which come from all those 'healthy whole grains') is because they break down as Sugar in your blood, which is toxic unless you get it out. This leads to insulin resistance, diabetes, and it causes your body to convert the sugar into your fat cells, which causes weight gain. Dietary fat doesn't convert to body/visceral fat as people say. In fact, it is generally converted into muscle mass when coupled with proper exercise. In other words, our bodies are made to eat meat, not wheat. The only problems with meat come from eating in excess, and meat actually curbs appetite. Wheat however, makes your body crave more wheat. It's a basic sugar addiction.

Geometer said...

God forbid you point out the flaws in their "CLEARLY SUPERIOR" lifestyle, or the dirty unwashed hippies will come FLOODING to your page to attack with no remorse.

Who's going to be right here, a dumbass blue collar worker or a professional in the medical field, someone who was required to take classes to ensure they knew what they were talking about?

God damned hippies. Take a shower and get off the internet, no one wants you here.

romanAK47 said...

our ancestors have been using and processing meat since the beginning of time.... to completely write off food and products from animals is just stupid IMO. It's part of nature, everything uses something else in the animal kingdom....including us. Just like the earth/ground uses us after we die. First vegetarian or vegan that either tells me about how much better their life is or talks down to me b/c I'm not part of their cult is getting a solid punch in the face. Man or Woman, I don't care.

rrrrrrrrr said...

Dear Melissa

Please tell me which university you went to so i can get a PHD, while playing 14 hours a day of Skyrim

Brad said...

Don't listen to Dr. Melissa Kevorkian here. She doesn't know what she's talking about and her lack of evidence shows it.

I'm not a doctor. I don't have a degree. I never went to college. I have, however dated a few different women who graduated from and/or worked for Yale University. I used go to trivia nights with one of them who's friends were all Yale grads or grad students. Well...suffice it to say, you have go to the best schools, have the best degrees, even become a doctor, and still be stupid. To use her term.

I'm vegan. I'm 6'2" 205-215 healthy as a horse, with a raging libido. I get a MINIMUM of 20-30 hours of intense exercise a week, unrelated to work, and including heavy weightlifting. I always have energy. I can probably beat almost everyone Dr. Melissa Kevorkian knows at both Jeopardy answers AND arm wrestling.

But I'm just a stupid vegan, don't take my raving, crazy word for it. Ask the Shaolin monks. They may not have advanced degrees from Stanford or Harvard, but I haven't seen much evidence of their vegan diets causing their health to deteriorate. The milk consumed by Shaolin monks is minimal. If any. Please tell them they are stupid...I'll wait over here.

Brad said...

Also...why is this even about health? Last I looked, nothing I eat had a throat that was slit. We're not cavemen anymore. We don't need to spear an elk to survive. Thousands of years was enough for humans to learn that rape and murder is wrong, but meat eating remains. I attribute this to the lack of advertising campaigns for rape and murder.

kck said...

to all of you who say that the vegan diet is healthy and there is nothing wrong with it and that we who eat meat just want to continue and this is anti vegan crap i will turn your argument on you and say that all you are doing is promoting anti carnivore crap and you just want an excuse to not listen to someone else

Ray C said...

We eat meat because we want to stay at the top of the food chain. You keep eating those veggies and change your nature to become prey instead of predator. Its a mean of survival. But then again like what my professor said. What is 5 words you call a person who doesn't eat meat?
Answer: "IDIOT"

Caitlin Claytor said...

To be healthy you have to eat plants, meat and other natural foods. The reason people who eat meat are unhealthy is the animals don't get enough nutrients in their food at factory farms and because they add shitloads of additives, not because of fat. Humans are supposed to eat meat, not because it's popular, it's HEALTHY. You can farm your own animals, instead of buying factory-farmed ones, but obviously the "humane" vegans don't want to kill their "friends". But, don't animals kill each other? "Butt tats natechur!!!!11" Humans have ALWAYS eaten meat. "Butt- butt- butt- tat wusnt acshuly helthy 4 us!!!!!1 were betr now!!!11!" Are there any other animals who just change their diet like humans? "Butt- uh- ppl cud nevr kill 1 big animul by temselves." Wat? Then cats should be vegans, too. "Ya, tey ttly shud."

M. "Butterflies" Katz (go by the name Butterflies said...

Living proof that vegans can and do live long healthy lives: http://thevegantruth.blogspot.com/2013/03/a-compilation-of-long-term-vegans-our.html

Misty Martin said...

who is anyone to call anyone Stupid for what they chose to eat, last i recalled it's their right. sounds like food is becoming like a religion. people only have one like and they should be able to live it without being judged by what they eat. if a child died of lack of nuts. than the parents should be held responsible for their lack og knowledge on vegan before starting their child on it, but by no means should all be attacked and called stupid like a, toddlers have more respect than you've shown here.

sockyy mcpuppetman said...

Your general remark might suggest a lack of true openness to new ideas. Mind you, being open to uncomfortable ideas is a vital component to scientific progress.

Yes, I have met my share of unhealthy vegans. But the healthiest people I have ever met are long term vegans (20 years+). That is saying something, I come from a family of long lived Japanese Athletes (though I am american) who only eat the healthiest of Japanese food.

I am a mathematician, one time after TAing for an Abstract Algebra and also a Set Theory course, I made friends with one of the students, a life long vegan (vegan from birth, now 25). In my personal opinion, they are possibly the smartest person I know. That includes the professors of the course for the classes, one of which had MIT as their back up school, and the other has two PHDs. (I am close friends with these professors, so it is not like I just don't know them.)

I know this vegan is just one person, and there is always an exception to the rule, but just something to think about. Possibly we can learn something from this person. They do not constantly worry about getting the right protein or such things. In fact they probably worry about food less than even the most slovenly people I know.

I will also add they are very athletically talented. I used to think I was pretty good at doing physical things. I came from a family of quite a few professional athletes, and I was always thought of as the most athletically gifted of all of them. This vegan is much more talented than me at such things. They are usually capable of performing feats, that I have practiced to learn for years, after literally one day.

This person's whole family is vegan. They are quite possibly the healthiest group of people I know.

More importantly, judge not... It is very sad indeed that those parents you spoke of didn't know what they were doing, but it does not mean that every vegan would do the same thing. I mean having babies is probably not for everyone( I am not suggesting eugenics, some people just hate babies and never want one. And some crazy people [including non vegans] keep their children in their basements so they never learn to talk, because they think it is good for them. I would never assume a future group of people is destined to do this because of that weird case.)

The vegan family I described earlier never complain that people who eat meat are bad people, or any other such thing. They have an interesting sense of morality that I think we can all learn from, just like learning from a different culture. Most Americans don't complain on blogs about how Japanese people are wrong because they worry more about the community over the individual, and most Japanese people don't do the reverse about Americans(it might possibly be hate speech if either did). It is just the way their culture is, and we can learn valuable knowledge about deeper human morality from hearing these differences.

Also the user Butterflies has posted a list of other useful examples. Outliers are not just an anomaly to ignore, they are an important counterexample that might lead to insights about what is possible.

Byron Travis said...

So I'm not a vegan. I actually ended up on here cause we've been eating a lot of kale and I've been telling my wife it's what silverback gorillas eat so hopefully I'll get huge like them, jokingly of course. I'm 30 years old and weigh 153lbs (5'9" tall). This is the most I've ever weighed. I eat "right" for the most part. Plenty of meat, plenty of fruits and veggies. I also eat my share of junk. In my search I ended up on a vegan website where they were ranting about there not being a named disease for protein insufficiency. I immediately thought of kwashiorkor. In the comments section there was a quote stating kwashiorkor was no longer believed to be the result of protein insufficiency. There was no link or anything and I couldn't find it anywhere so I question the legitimacy of it. So I also exercise everyday. I'm a Green Beret, more precisely a Special Forces medic. I say that for two reasons, and I suppose you can decide for yourself whether or not it's true. I'm in great shape and I didn't have to swear off meat to do it! In fact a protein supplement is the only way I've been able to gain any mass. I also have some medical knowledge, hence my knowing of what kwashiorkor is. I just want to make two final points. Blaming meat for people being unhealthy is like blaming guns for murder. Why don't you blame the forks and spoons these fat bodies are using while you're at it. Secondly, having made a couple trips outside this country I find it strange how critical Americans are of food. Kwashiorkor being a disease of famine, I doubt you'll find to many Somalis who will turn down a cheese burger or ask for gluten free anything. Afghanis eat meat all the time and yet there is not childhood obesity problem. There is, however, a reason we're taller than all of them.

Byron Travis said...

Also, I read Dr. McDougal's response and I'm no doctor, but I'm pretty sure Vitamin D doesn't just magically come from the sun. Most foods don't have vitamin D in them naturally, so it's added (Fortified with Vit.D) I would assume it's put in milk for the same reason iodine is put in salt. It's common delivery mechanism in most diets. Sunlight causes vitamin D synthesis in the body, but I would have to assume most Americans aren't getting enough sun since all of our food is fortified with Vit D. Again the problem being behavior not food. Interesting that he brings up vitamin D, when other than mushrooms, the other big vit. D foods are meat. Wonder where the supplements come from? Maybe the good doctor thinks we're all mushrooms and he can feed us sh#! and keep us in the dark LOL! I for one know how to use the Google on my internet machine.

Sm l said...

What pathetic blog. Your husband is a chiropractor? I have my doubts that your even a real doctor.

Dan Black said...

Wow... I've only read some of this post, but you seem very quackish. Do you really believe you have the answers? You're nuts. I stopped reading at the part about some "waifish" girl at a birthday party and being unable to convince her mother to "add some protein" to the girl's diet. If "protein" was the problem, then she really wasn't being vegan intelligently in the first place... and there are plenty of omnivorous people who are also not being "intelligent" about their diets either... so why pick on vegans at all? Also, your comments about B vitamin deficiencies - don't you realize that all you meat-eaters do is "supplement" with meat? We're ALL supplementing in some form or another. So what if vegans do it through vitamins, non-dairy yogurts and fortified ceareals/foods? What is the real difference? Get bent, moron. Most people are screwing up their diets, REGARDLESS what they are eating. It's a HUMAN habit to be stupid, not a vegan one. And your post is proof positive of that.

Heath Watts said...

How is it that a chiropractor, who is a right-wing nut, who believes that vaccines cause autism, who does not accept the scientific evidence for global warming, and who believes in a god can feel comfortable calling anyone else stupid? You might want to reconsider your intellectual place in the world, Melissa, because it is not as lofty as you believe it is.
Heath D. Watts, PhD (Geochemistry)

Russell Edwards said...

I agree that children should not be vegans. They need a lot more protein than a vegan diet can provide. However, I disagree with you that adult vegans are unheallthy. I eat a vegan diet. I do splurge some. Hey, life is short! I'm also an ultramarathon runner/triathlete and, if I may brag a little, probably the healthiest person I know. I'm just south of 40 years old and am healthier than a 10 year old. I exercise everyday, sometimes twice per day, and have 2 kids and a full time job. Have you ever thought that you don't see many vegans in your practice because most don't need medical attention because they are so healthy?

Joseph Mitchell said...

Stupid meat-eaters. "Where do you get your protein?" could have been another good title of this article. I've seen ignorance before so it's easy to recognize.

Joseph Mitchell said...

My 7 year old son is a vegan and he has no issues with protein. Maybe you're healthier than 10 year olds because by age 10, kids already show signs of heart disease due to consuming food with cholesterol.

laurie said...

This whole post is stupid. You can get vitamin B's, Iron, Calcium, and all that FROM A VEGAN DIET. I know, I do it every day. Every now and then I record everything I eat in a day too make sure I'm getting necessary nutrients- I always am! I get close to 70 g of protein a day- over 20 of what women are supposed to get, because I work out, lift weights, and am trying to gain muscle. I don't think you really know what you're talking about?

IAmTheGreatDivider said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Victoria said...

As a vegetarian for the last 30 years, I have to say, I disagree. The one year I was a vegan, I had a BMI of 22 and total cholesterol of 140. If everyone were a vegan, most doctors would be out of business.

There is nothing about a vegan diet that results in starvation. Every nutrient -- including fat, complete protein, and B12 -- can be found in a vegan diet. There are plenty of calorically adequate vegan diets. There is no reason, nutritionally speaking, that a vegan diet can't meet every adult and baby's nutritional needs.

Yes, you may have met crazy or stupid vegans. But you shouldn't use that as an ad hominem weapon against veganism itself.

Andrew Neil said...

It is shocking to me that a "physician" would post such incredibly anecdotal and ignorant comments.

First, veganism is NOT a diet. It is a philosophy. Ergo, critiquing something that is NOT a diet and to point out the shortcomings of said diet is a logical fallacy.

Vegans eat everything omnivores eat with the exception of animal products. That leaves fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds and grains. However, if you were to exclude many of these items and resorted to processed and junk foods, by way of example, one would indeed become unhealthy. But this does not a vegan diet make. If one eats a whole-foods, plant-based diet, which can absolutely be a wholesome, nutritionally rich diet, one can be very, very healthy. One could call either of these a "vegan diet" but it would be equally unfair to say that our unprecedented rates of obesity, diabetes, heart disease and cancer are a result of an omnivorous diet. There are lots of omnivores who are health and unhealthy just like vegans. So just like omnivorous diets, one can eat healthy or unhealthy, it comes down to choice and educating oneself and being responsible.

Furthermore, to suggest that eating meat and dairy is a biological imperative (i.e. it is required to be healthy) is not only false and unverifiable, it is downright irresponsible.

As a vegan of 8 years, and my wife for 25 years, we are the picture perfect of health. And my physician agrees. I have no B12 deficiency for example - 15% of the population is B12 deficient, yet vegans only account for 2% of the population, ergo there are a lot of omnivores who are B12 deficient too, it is often an absorption issue. I have no "protein deficiency", my skin, energy level and general wellness are fine. Every year I get a physical and have my doctor check all the major biomarkers - everything falls within the normal ranges. My physician has no objections to my vegan diet (he is not vegan btw). I also do not take any supplements. I am 5'-11" tall and weigh 180lbs and have a perfect BMI.

And for the record, I'm the rule not the exception. Dr. Clouthier, your blog and position shows an incredible cognitive bias.

Elif said...

I am a vet and I have never , ever called a patient of mine "stupid". On the contrary , physicians who use terms like "protein deficiency" and base their facts on empirical data are stupid.I would start using Pubmed , Doc (?).

Jure said...

Dr. Clouthier, I kindly advise you to study more about vegan diet before making seriously wrong medical assumptions. According to the latest USA Dietary Guidelines Advisory Comitte report, vegan diet is considered at least as healthy as omnivorous. http://www.pcrm.org/media/news/dietary-guidelines-plant-based-promotion

I suggest reading the whole report before making any more foolish claims about "stupid vegans", because it's are unprofessional and unethical:

Shelby Carr said...

A vegan is a person who eats no animal products while a vegetarian have cheese and milk in their diets.

Whitelight said...

Finally, a rational (yet sarcastic) response!
Me and my children are vegan, and we get plenty of plant based protein. We have our bloods tested once a year to keep track, none of of us so far deficient in anything. In fact, we're super healthy and don't get colds, flu or sick bugs anymore. We have more energy, can cycle for long distances, and are abundant with vitality.
B12 is the most common vitamin to be deficient from, that's with carnivores too.
This is because the microorganism comes from organic earth/ algae, and because of what's been done to our agricultural system, those microorganisms are far and few between. So EVERYONE should supplement B12.
More over, It's ingested by animals that carnists eat. So effectively it's filtered nutrients.
This is like filtering water through a sewer before drinking it... nonsensical.

As a biologist, I suggest you research new data, because science is a never ending plethora of information. We're always finding new information.

Whitelight said...

Veganism is the healthiest way anyone can live, no doubt about it!

Whitelight said...

Veganism is the healthiest way anyone can live, no doubt about it!

Calisvegics said...

"Vegans avoid protein" She says, forgetting that the BCAAs in plant foods are in fact shorter which means it is easier for us to digest, and also that heated nutrients and foods are digested with more difficulty. Veganism isn't about 'avoiding protein' fuck my life. Veganism is about avoiding the exploitation and unnecessary slaughter of innocent animals. Foods such as beans, legumes, rice, potatoes, avocado, pumpkin seeds, various nuts and seeds will provide an abundance of essential amino acids and protein. Why does this lady exclusively and religiously label meat as the only source of protein available? Title of the blog post is 'Stupid Vegan', while the author knows nothing about plant-based proteins, the health risks of eating red meat (yes, red meat increases the acidity in our digestive and blood systems, causing the increase in growth amongst cancer cells), and about caloric intake. It seems to me that whole food, plant based vegans are in fact the more intelligent ones, as we actually consider the animals and realise, through empathy, that they also deserve to live. BTW, check out someone named Dr Neal Barnard. He has been curing patients of diabetes using a whole foods plant based diet since the 80's. Haha, stupid vegans my vegan ass. I wish I could post a pic of my muscular transformation since changing to a whole foods plant based diet, without any supplements.

Unknown said...

This is the most absurd example she could've used tbh, this couple were A) not vegan, since when did we condone killing fish for their oil? B) They denied a baby breast milk. It is an absolute insult to vegan and veggie parents to assume that they are all this stupid. Meat eating parents have also let their kids die without vaccines or abused them. And also logical fallacy much? "Healthy vegans don't exist because I don't meet them and I saw some news reports!"Has she stopped to consider how much she meets them outside of the context of being a doctor? Because of course you're only going to meet sick vegans if they're going to the doctors. The rest of us aren't in the doctors over vitamin deficiencies because we're managing our diets just fine.

Katherine Byrne said...

I know right, they get about 4hrs nutrition schooling max.If they're a normal doctor.

Katherine Byrne said...

To be fair mate, wouldn't you be pissed off if you came across an article saying "insert group you belong to" are stupid based on very limited, and slightly absurd evidence.

Katherine Byrne said...

Wait? This person is a chiropractor, oh wtf well that just does it then! What possible authority could they have on this?! I mean they know about backs, mine definitely made my back pain go away, but they are not qualified to speak on nutrition!

Katherine Byrne said...

To be fair mate, wouldn't you be pissed off if you came across an article saying "insert group you belong to" are stupid based on very limited, and slightly absurd evidence.

Katherine Byrne said...

I know right, they get about 4hrs nutrition schooling max.If they're a normal doctor.

Katherine Byrne said...

This is the most absurd example she could've used tbh, this couple were A) not vegan, since when did we condone killing fish for their oil? B) They denied a baby breast milk. It is an absolute insult to vegan and veggie parents to assume that they are all this stupid. Meat eating parents have also let their kids die without vaccines or abused them. And also logical fallacy much? "Healthy vegans don't exist because I don't meet them and I saw some news reports!"Has she stopped to consider how much she meets them outside of the context of being a doctor? Because of course you're only going to meet sick vegans if they're going to the doctors. The rest of us aren't in the doctors over vitamin deficiencies because we're managing our diets just fine.

Unknown said...

Spot on and thank you for this honest statement. I was raised vegetarian and was a very healthy child.I was the first child and refused to eat meat,so with the help of a nutritionist,my parents successfully raised a vegetarian child.They parents are a poor example in any community.

Michele Hughes said...

Agreed. I blame this on PETA

demsco said...

Your blood was so good they wanted you to come back?? I call bull they don't test quality of blood you idiot only diseases or other pathogens. Problem with b12 deficiency is you begin to dig into the psychosis. I know, I have it. Bottom line, not enough b12 or b complex in general no oral vitamin can help. I get a shot every week and take b vitamins twice a day and still deficient. You'llall see, takes a long time to run out of stored vitamins... Also don't buy you all never get sick. Nut jobs.

demsco said...

Your blood was so good they wanted you to come back?? I call bull they don't test quality of blood you idiot only diseases or other pathogens. Problem with b12 deficiency is you begin to dig into the psychosis. I know, I have it. Bottom line, not enough b12 or b complex in general no oral vitamin can help. I get a shot every week and take b vitamins twice a day and still deficient. You'llall see, takes a long time to run out of stored vitamins... Also don't buy you all never get sick. Nut jobs.

Mercury said...

I think it's impossible to respond fully to this blog without wanting to slap the shit out of this fucking idiot. Not only is she uneducated, she is just blatantly attacking veganism without knowing anything about it. The protein and b12 comments were enough to have me say "what the fuck?" Out loud while reading. The day I stop being a vegan is the day cannibalism is legal.