Tuesday, February 26, 2008

How To Get A Woman

Today, Rachel Lucas discusses the woman who would dump on her guy "friend" while still dating the "jerk". She goes pretty tough on the girls, and rightfully so. I've known these types. In fact, one of my college friends dismayed me with her shameless using of the guy "friend". She knew damn well that there was no future with the friend but he had a car, or money, or an ear, or whatever she needed at the time. And, it was ALL about her. Men should flee this woman.

But let' not fool ourselves here. Men get something out of the "friend" equation. They get the company of a pretty girl. They get the moral superiority of not being like that guy. They get to be the shoulder to cry on without any of the expectations of a real relationship. In short, the arrangement suits them, too. They don't do any of the hard work to woo a woman, yet there she is next to him, anyway.

Guys need to man up. It really isn't that tough to get a woman. Yeah, we're complicated. Blah. Blah. That comes with the reproductive parts you love so much. If you want a woman, you invite complication and all the wonderfulness that comes with it. You do want to invite a woman, right? So, how to do it:

1. Dig women. Simple enough. But some guys seem strangely gender neutral. One of the hottest guys I ever met had a pot belly, low-brow humor and gold chains around his neck. He was the typical Long Island guy ala Chris Katan. But he dug women. All women. Every woman he met he could find something interesting about. I remember a compliment he gave me, like it was yesterday. And he meant it. Did he ever have a shortage of women? Uh no. Every girl wanted to be around this guy. And he always had girls. Sometimes two at a time.

2. Make eye contact. I know. I know. You're shy. Get over it, already. Join Toastmasters. Do something to overcome your fear. Because when you're a scaredy cat, you're making it all about you and not the woman. She will see your interest in your eyes. An interested guy is an interesting guy.

3. Be quietly confident. You don't have to be a complete jackass to be confident. It's how you carry yourself. If you hunch over and act like a kicked dog, you will give off kicked-dog vibes. Don't be surprised when you're kicked. Confidence breeds confidence. Stand up taller. See #2 again. Make sure you have a firm handshake. Smile. If it means you need to work out or better yourself in some way to overcome your insecurity, do it.

4. Approach her. What are you waiting for? If she's that great, she's worth an approach. A guy who can't overcome his nerves to go to a girl he thinks is awesome, doesn't deserve the girl and really, doesn't want her bad enough.

5. Tell her. If you're sick of the "just friends" moniker, tell her how you feel. Sure, you're risking losing her friendship, but you might risk losing more if you don't tell her; and she won't be your's anyway if you never say anything. So, it's a win, win, if you tell her. A woman may not be into you, but it will always mean something to be told that she is appreciated and loved. By the way, this step is terrifying. Some women can be cruel or unkind or just plain stupid in this situation. This does not say anything about you, other than next time choose better. A good woman will not intentionally hurt you even if the response isn't what you want.

6. Have fun. This isn't life and death. This is making friends that could be something more. Too often, the pressure is to make this "perfect". It doesn't have to be. It just has to be fun.

There are wonderful men and women out there--smart, funny, kind, beautiful, handsome, the whole package. No complaining. No whining. No kvetching to friends. You can do this. I have a friend who found her soul mate on Match.com. I have another who met at a bar. There are friends who met at work or at school or at church.

Love is all around us. We just have to bring it to us and sometimes that means stepping out on faith.


carol said...

I can't get over the weak, wimpy cyphers the young girls in high school go for, get pregnant by and shack up with. They seem to make no effort at all - it's all the girl's doing.

But I guess if the boy is dumb enough to get someone knocked up at 16, they probably didn't have much ambition anyway.

Melissa Clouthier said...

Well, women are more aggressive, no doubt, but to their own demise, I think.

Raving Lunatic said...

"They get to be the shoulder to cry on without any of the expectations of a real relationship"

Since when was being a kleenex a benefit?

I've had friends like this, but I've never wanted a relationship beyond friendship with them. All I ever had to do was watch her cycle of self-centered childishness to know I didn't want to be inside that loop.

I have to disagree totally about the 'benefits' you think a guy gets from this. It's not a benefit, it's torture. And the sad truth is, on the guy's side it's a symbiotic cycle as equally childish as the womans.

What I do agree with your column is, "Guys need to man-up."

Anonymous said...

It is clear that you cannot even begin to understand how difficult it is for a shy person to make eye contact, act confident, and approach a woman. You might as well be advising a cancer patient to just think his way past that cancer.

Anonymous said...

I have found that if the guy is good looking, he can say any stupid thing and get the girl, if he is not good looking, then he has to be a master at the pick up game.

Anonymous said...

I just don't know how to get over hating females after 3 marriages.
I'm 49 and have paid child support since I could father a child. They all just want my babies but not me.
And you know why? Becuase I was GOOD to them, becuase I was NICE to them. I GAVE them everything they wanted. So I am retired from relationships which is sad becuase I own my home, have a good job and am financially sound. I will retire in 6 years and live my life very comfortably WITHOUT a woman.
Free in Ky

sts said...

This one brought out a lot! To anonymous that said Doc doesn't know the whole shy thing...you're incorrect...she does get it. Shy is a personality trait and/or confidence issue, but not one that can't be overcome with much effort. If a guy is really into a girl, then find a way to make oneself more in the game.

And to the guy that said there's no benefit to being a kleenex...I agree, from a woman's perspective, but seriously, I've seen more than one guy getting a huge ego boost out of being the one that "she" could go to and receive comfort. Granted, the guys have been shallow to a point, so it's not like it was a huge benefit.

rjschwarz said...

What this article and Rachels are missing is the scenerio where the guy doesn't actually want to date his female friend.

Getting to know a girl as a friend can be a real eye opener into their psychology that you are usually to close to see while in a relationship.

Melissa Clouthier said...


I agree with you. It is possible to only want friendship and it be a mutually beneficial thing. It seems that relationships are cast as a zero-sum game.

Free in Ky,

All I can say is that I'm sorry this has been the way it is for you. What I have found in my own life is that I tend to bring the energy into it that I'm congruent with. To be a victim of a whole gender is to give women an awful lot of power. By seeing our own part in our life, we take our power back. Just a thought.

Anonymous shy person,

I do indeed understand shyness. I was painfully shy myself, had horrible stage fright that was nearly debilitating (throwing up, blanking out, the whole thing)and generally still prefer to avoid group situations unless I'm comfortable with those in the group. It has taken a lot of work to overcome the shyness. So, I do get it. It is worthwhile to overcome, though, because to stay inside all the time is to miss out.

Anonymous average guy,

Beauty always gives a person an edge, but it doesn't keep him in the door.

Anonymous said...

Dear Anon 8:14, I am so sorry that you have had so much pain with women. There are a lot of good women around. We carry so much baggage into our relationships and unless we begin to look at them and examine them carefully, we will continue to carry them with us to the next relationship, and to the next, and to the next. Then of course, the problems become compounded and it all seems too much for us.

My father was married 4 times and the 4th wife was the relationship that finally brought some healing into his life.

I am a woman, and I have had huge issues with women. Especially strong spirited women - because of abuse. I have been able to go back though, and realize how it all got started and I am a lot more at peace and even okay with women. I realized that they don't have as much power of me as I always thought they did.

I wish you peace and freedom from all pain and past hurts.

Raving Lunatic said...

rjschwarz, you hit the nail on the head, sorta. The friends I mentioned are mostly still my friends, but just that. And it is a very revealing learning experience to have a female friend you can talk about anything with without relationship hang-ups. For instance, it helped me learn that they are all, without exception, crazy ;)

I pretty sure though that Rachaels point was specifically calling out guys whining over "why doesn't she want me" and the type of women they've glommed onto. Just being friends wasn't the issue.

Anonymous said...

This is all good advice, but ignores one big factor. Women choose men based largely on their income and social status, or on their guessed future ability to get these things. If a guy is great looking or has a great personality, that may substitute for money and status to some degree, but not completely. Maybe to the 20% level. If you're a garage mechanic and a woman thinks she can get an Ivy League lawyer, she's not going to choose you no matter how good looking, nice, and witty you are.

This isn't gold digging most of the time, though sometimes it is, usually it's subconscious. Women are sexually attracted to money, power, and status in the same way that men are attracted to female physical features, at an automatic level.

So if a woman wants to be "just friends" one possible reason is that you don't meet her income and status requirements. It's a waste of time and emotional energy to chase the unattainable.

Melissa Clouthier said...

Anon 12:22,

Well, I can only speak from my own experience, but I chose based on neither thing. However, a guy with no potential would be a bad pick, indeed. Why is it cast in a negative light that a woman would want a man who is more than a passive lump? If she is going to make herself vulnerable both personally (health wise) and professionally (career wise) to have a child, why shouldn't she pick a man with at least the potential to be able to support her and the child?

Now, to marry a man entirely based on his paycheck is superficial and ridiculous. I haven't met one woman who has done that. I have known women who stayed for a paycheck. To reduce a man to his bank account is as sexist as it is to reduce a woman to her bra size, but there are superficial people everywhere.

Anonymous said...

I agree with Melissa here. I also can only speak from personal experience.

When I first married my husband, he did not yet have a college education and was working very hard at a blue collard job. I did not, at least on a conscious level, choose him for his pay check. However, he chased me for two years and during that two year period, I analyzed him pretty carefully. If, as Melissa puts it so well, I was going to make myself vulnerable to this person and have his children, I wanted to be sure that I married someone that was not a "passive lump."

Now, almost 20 years later, my husband has a advanced degree and brings home a much bigger pay check than I could have dreamed about at the time. Should that be put in a negative light towards me as a woman? I truly don't think so. Most women that I know, want to be loved, really loved.

Anonymous said...

Anon 7:23 replying to sts and Melissa --

Shy is a personality trait and/or confidence issue, but not one that can't be overcome with much effort. If a guy is really into a girl, then find a way to make oneself more in the game.

You clearly don't understand the shyness issue. Tell me HOW to find a way to "make oneself more in the game" when I feel as if I am under a microscope and cannot even begin to think of the first thing to say when I want to meet somebody. "Hi, what's your sign?" just doesn't cut it.

I was painfully shy myself, had horrible stage fright that was nearly debilitating (throwing up, blanking out, the whole thing)and generally still prefer to avoid group situations unless I'm comfortable with those in the group. It has taken a lot of work to overcome the shyness. So, I do get it. It is worthwhile to overcome, though, because to stay inside all the time is to miss out.

Since you're a psychologist you are undoubtedly aware that social phobias have many different manifestations, and that somebody who has stage fright may be perfectly at ease talking one on one with a new person (after all, this is the critical skill in meeting new people, while others (me, for example) can give a speech in front of an audience of a thousand people, but could no more think of something intelligent to say to a stranger ("Hi, what's your sign?" doesn't count) than I could flap my arms and fly. I'm sure it is worthwhile to overcome shyness, but simply telling someone who is completely tongue tied that he needs to try harder is simply cruel.

Melissa Clouthier said...

Anon 5:23,

I'm not suggesting that a person with agoraphobia or an anxiety disorder or some other psychological syndrome just "get over it". If it's a matter of shyness, then there are behavioral steps that can be taken to overcome the fear.

It can be very debilitating to be shy, but there are ways to overcome it. Namely, a person can get into therapy and simply learn the social skills and practice them.

I would also suggest examining the beliefs underlying the fear. Some people believe they will "die of embarrassment". Or they worry about criticism and judgment.

The topic wasn't shyness, per se. It was about how to get a woman. If pathological shyness is the issue, something more than I listed here needs to be undertaken. I in no way wish to diminish the pain that those who suffer on the side-lines feel.

John said...

This is old ground.
Look at: http://www.intellectualwhores.com/masterladder.html

for the description of the friend (= intellectual whore) and the jerk and how this comes to be.

Check out: http://www.ladderwiki.com/wiki/Main_Page

for more on ladder theory & how to get girls. You may not like either of these sites, but there is far more truth in them than in most discussions of relationships.

Also, I have a question for many of the female commenters: What makes you think you really know why you are attracted to a man? I find myself at times attracted to women I should not be, and not attracted to women I should be. I can't figure out why, but have determined experimentally that if the attraction isn't there, trying and hoping for a spark doesn't work.

Anonymous said...

As much as I critique Pick Up Artists, I do give them credit for one thing. Being a doctor, maybe you can appreciate it as well: They do the heavy field work.

8 hours a day hitting on women of all types and scenarios, using trial and error methods, getting paid thousands of dollars for their advice.

Now turn to every female blogger on the scene- "Picking up a girl is easy as 1-2-3!"(or 6 in this case)

Alright. Take your own advice. Approach a set of women at a bar/club and get their numbers using your methods. Take it all the way to where you think you could initiate sex. Get your success rate to around 40% like the aforementioned "gurus."

My guess is that female bloggers have not given thought to the whole process. Only their perspective.

The kind of advice dispensed is often so bland, obscure, and incorrect, it makes me wonder what exit you live on. 'Cause I wanna know where you get off telling other people wtf to do. "The wise speak only of what they know."

But I am patient and more than willing to let you post the results.

P.S. Not trying to be particularly harsh, just getting your attention. :)


Melissa Clouthier said...


It wasn't my premise that by "getting" a girl the goal was to end up in bed with her that night, the next day or even that week. The goal was to meet a girl that you really like with the potential for a real relationship as opposed to being just "the friend".

And the last rule was to "have fun". The process of meeting people should be fun and interesting. Eric, I did, at one time, use those methods, but I'm an old married lady now :). I do know they work.

But you're right, chemistry and the interaction between men and women is complicated and mysterious. There are no guarantees of mutuality. The person we're attracted to may not be attracted to us. And it can happen the other way. There are no guarantees. We can do some things to help us have more fun and find more success in the process.

Anonymous said...

Well then, I take that as an admission of wrongdoing.

Since you won't address my problems with your post, I'll answer yours. First is that it should be clear that men and women have different goals in the mating ritual. As I said earlier, I'll bet it all looks so easy when you are the target of attention, not the one that has to have "game." Women have all the power at the start as attractive women get hit on upwards of hundreds of times a day.

So while you may downplay sex in the process, I'm pretty sure you'll admit that men don't. That's the separator between being a friend and a real relationship.

Those methods worked for YOU! Female dating habits of the 60's (example)wouldn't have much to offer a young man dating today.

Seems like wishy-washy and often totally outdated guidelines for men to follow today is all I'm saying.


Jaded in Idaho said...

I have been meaning to respond to this for several months and I have taken the liberty of doing one at a time

1. Personally I always thought of Chris Kattan as a heterosexually deficient hack that couldn't act his way out of a high school production of "Our Town", but that's neither here nor there. This point goes on to say that this corpulent, gold chained schlub from Jamaica Queens fooled this poor girl into actually thinking his compliment was genuine. From practically any other man on earth, it's a half-assed attempt to get in their pants. Yet, he "always had women". P.T. Barnum, please pick up the white courtesy phone, P.T. Barnum, to the white courtesy phone.

2. The last thing a guy like me can afford to do is make eye contact. I'm not going to lie here: Eye contact is inherently creepy. Stalkers make eye contact, too, should men who are in the same predicament I am start purchasing binoculars and video cameras and start following really hot girls from a court approved distance?

Most of human communication is non-verbal. Eye contact is such a communication and I despise it with every fiber of my being. I would get into very spirited debates with my Dad on this subject when I was younger, especially when he would tell me that "you need to look people in the eye." Not if I don't want to feel like I have to take a cold fucking shower every time I do it.

3. Actually, you do have to be a complete jackass to be confident. Confidence has a myriad of definitions depending on the context, but one of them reads "a belief in oneself and one's powers or abilities". See, what most people euphemistically call "confidence" is egotism, pure and simple. Tiger Woods for example is pretty confident that when he steps onto the 13th tee at Augusta during the final round of the Masters, he'll crush a drive off the tee past Ray's Creek and onto the green, safely getting the hole within regulation. But just because he's one of a select few golfers on the planet that can do it on one of the world's toughest golf courses and has the ability to do so doesn't make it any less egotistical.

And the last time I checked, wasn't pride counted among the seven deadly sins? Come to think of it, it really hasn't caught up to Terrell Owens yet...

4. That's great, if you're a narcissistic, pot bellied jackass from Long Island. For the rest of us--and specifically yours truly--it's a Trojan horse. In bars, clubs, movie theaters, churches, wherever, there's a boyfriend, husband, unusually protective brother or cousin, or sometimes the woman herself.

Quick story: when I first moved to Wyoming (this would have been going into my freshman year of high school), I went to a dance to see if I could make some new friends. Not really knowing any better, I decided to ask a girl to dance. This girls name I found out later was Melissa "Missy" Grissom. When I asked her if she wanted to dance her response was "no, I don't like you". Wow. I didn't really have the thought in mind to ask "why the hell not?" but I did have the thought that if the not-so-great Missy didn't find me kosher enough to have for dinner, then who else would? Even now when I'm at clubs I have to make 10,000% sure that I'm not going to be turned down before I even consider dancing with a girl.

This may have also coincided with the fact that I don't have the genetics or physique to have any realistic chance anyway, but more on that in a second.

5. In the real world, it's a lose-lose scenario. Few women have enough spare time (well, enough compared to how much I have) to hang out with me consistently and when it comes down to brass tacks, women as a gender playing with a pair of X chromosomes simply won't date me. Oh, sure there will be one or two that might, but out of three billion or so, those are long odds. I stand a better chance of hitting a royal flush in a poker game than have a woman show any romantic interest.

6. Let me put it this way: having strangers eyeballing you and wondering what they are thinking and specifically what they're thinking about you is not fun. Contemplating asking a girl to dance and wondering if there isn't a boyfriend or husband with biceps bigger than my waist waiting to toss me into the parking lot and assault me is not fun. Having a good 99.997% of women not consider you a person worth dating is not fun.

And it doesn't have to be perfect? No, it has to be. Even the Bible says "be ye therefore perfect" does it not? When you don't have a lot to bring to the table, you simply can't afford to make mistakes. Ever.

Here now is how to get a woman that will actually work.

1. Have money. The more to your name the better. It's also at the top of the list because this will more than make up for any deficiency you may have with women (which in my particular case is pretty numerous) No woman wants a man that is pushing 30 or 40 and has never made more than $15 an hour at any point in his life. And if you're expecting a rebate check from your fellow taxpayers in the recently passed economic stimulus package, forget it. Chicks don't dig government handouts. So make sure your adjusted gross income is somewhere in the high five to low six figures, otherwise you may want to take up a hobby or a Jenna Jameson DVD collection.

2. Have at least some sort of good looks or muscular physique. Calvert DeForest (whom many of you know better as the great Larry "Bud" Melman) was an amazing comedic talent, one of the more underrated comedians of our generation, but didn't have any significant other, and looking at the poor guy, it's not hard to understand why. I guess if you're really desperate enough you could try something like HGH or some of that creatine monohydrate or possibly plastic surgery, but that sort of leads us back to item 1

3. An occupation that involves showing off the aforementioned good looks (i.e.: UPS drivers, firefighters, military personnel, and so on). Mind you I am not putting down these occupations, especially the military, but I am explicating that it's a line of work that will get you, as my old buddy Todd says "made, laid, and paid".

4. Become a chipmunk, change your name to Ron Jeremy, and become a movie "star". (Provided you're properly "equipped")

The author here that I just lambasted comes at us with the line "it's time to man up, guys." No, ma'am. It's time for guys like me who don't have a shot in hell to quit deluding ourselves. If you're a big fan of Darwin (and I'm really not), we're (I'm) being naturally selected out of the gene pool, and that's all there is to it.

I guess I'll just have to "man up" and deal with that then, won't I, ladies?

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