Sunday, April 06, 2008

Abortion Is Great!

Amanda Marcotte is at it again, and by "it" I mean illustrating why feminists hurt themselves when it comes to abortion. Statements like this are so repulsive to the average person:

I appreciate the idea that visibility is critical to getting people to understand that women who get abortions or rape victims—two groups dehumanized and demonized in an effort to strip them of their rights—are human beings. I was in full support of the “I had an abortion” T-shirt, because to me, it’s not complicated. The anti-choice movement tries like hell to erase women’s existence, or at least our individuality, and the T-shirt undermines that. It also clarifies that abortion is nothing to be ashamed of. For me, “I had an abortion” should be as morally loaded as “I had a Pap smear”. The underpinnings of the moral angst about abortion—the idea that a woman has no right to pry loose a flag a man has planted in her (even if he agrees with her decision, as most men in this case do), or that she should be punished for having sex—offend me to the core, and that many women go through anguish over getting abortions depresses me. They shouldn’t feel bad for having sex or having autonomy. In fact, they should be proud of themselves for taking care of themselves despite all the misogynist messages out there that women don’t have a right to take care of ourselves. People balked at the idea that the “I had an abortion” T-shirts smacked of that mortal female sin of pride, but I applaud it. Women should be proud of doing right by themselves in a world where that’s socially disavowed.
Ann Althouse, who believes in abortion, says this:
The "abortion" shirt, on the other hand, admits that you've done something for yourself that involved sacrificing what many people believe is another human being. Why do you want to say that by T-shirt? In Marcotte's view, it's to show that you're proud of "taking care" of yourself "despite all the misogynist messages out there." I thought it was more to normalize abortion — to make it seem ordinary, widespread, and something that would be done without shame by nice, upstanding women.
I happen to believe that abortion is wrong. Period. However, I can understand a woman's claim to her own body. I can understand the fear of an unwanted pregnancy. Most women have had that fear at one time in their life. So, as much as I find abortion repugnant, I don't find those who feel trapped and make that decision repugnant. It can seem perfectly rational at the time. Still, I know only two women who haven't regretted their decision, and often the forced decision to abort a child.

Abortion is a tortured experience for a woman because it is a morally fraught decision. The same woman who aborts a "fetus" will call a wanted child her "baby" the instant she reports the joy of her pregnancy. Many women regret being moved by fear or helplessness. Many women resent the manipulation by boyfriends, husbands and family when she wants the baby. Many women would choose differently if given the choice again.

This reality seems to be lost by those like Amanda Marcotte. In her absolutist world, there is no ambiguity around the topic. There is no such thing as regret or conflict. Women should wear their abortions with pride. It is a sign of self-affirmation.

And she actually touches on the heart of the problem. At it's heart, abortion is a selfish decision. A woman is choosing her own comfort over the discomfort and inconvenience of an unplanned for child (I am not touching on the anguish a raped woman feels in facing the future). And she feels women should wear this selfishness with pride. She does a disservice to the reproductive rights crowd and harms her own movement by being so cavalier about the implications of the decision to abort.

Society benefits that shame is associated with "the right to choose." Is there no shame anymore? Even with the shame, far too many people engage in sex without thought and consideration of the consequences that can result in another being paying the ultimate price for momentary pleasure. Removing the shame would simply increase the number of abortions and multiply the regret of many more people, who, stopped by their conscience, opt to have a child and make it work instead of choosing abortion.

The real shame is that feminists elevate selfishness and refuse to see the conflict inherent in the decision to abort. By doing so, they harm women they ostensibly desire to help.

Cross-posted at Right Wing News.

Update:

Well, my post ruffled the feathers of Ms. Marcotte. She says this as a conclusion:

There is only one thing to conclude from this.

Melissa Clouthier enjoys getting a Pap smear.

Honestly, if they were less anxious about sex, they could do it like normal people and quit having to find bizarre and frankly perverse ways to enjoy the touch of another human being.

Equating a Pap Smear with an Abortion is fascinating. So the embryonic cells forming a baby fall into the same category as atypical cells on the cervix related to genital warts (human papilloma virus--HPV causes cellular change and it the cause of cervical cancer). [UPDATE AGAIN: Please note that atypical cells can be caused by many things, not just HPV. For more information, go here. ] A pap smear has the same significance as an abortion in that they are both uncomfortable procedures? Or is it that both procedures are necessary because they come about due to enjoying sex?

And then, of course, people who are against abortions must hate sex and women. I happen to love both. No, I'm not a lesbian--don't get too excited. But is there a more lame stereotype? A Christian, married woman must be frigid, hate herself, hate women and hate sex. She's under the foot of the male patriarchy, dominated, and deluded.

The only way to prove my liberation is to believe in abortion.

181 comments:

Anonymous said...

I used to support abortion mainly out of a desire to be accepted into the sisterhood however once I turned 40 things changed. The sisterhood never spoke of the lies, fabrications, manipulations they used as their means of ending poverty by preventing poor, black, disabled from breeding.

Since I left the sisterhood seven years ago I have learn much about the abortion issue, primarily the fact that abortion isn't about women at all but about societal control ie 'poor people breed proverty so don't let them breed' philosophy.

I've never had an abortion but as a 'sexually liberated woman' I have had to think about it alot; so much so, that today I consider abortion the burden a woman can no longer carry.

At this point I abhor the cuurent wave of feminist philosophy; it has ripped out our wombs and denied us Womanhood.

Unlike miscarriage, abortion is an artifical act against a natural course of events. I often wonder if thought is given to the idea that when a female has an abortion her body is unprepared to handle the event, triggering all sorts of biological and psychological reactions to an artifical act.

For example, how many women who have had an abortion eventually end up with cancer of repoduce organs which includs the breast. How many who have had abortions end up emotional basketcases?

In any event, since a woman's time frame to have children is limited I have no doubt that twenty-something feminists today will one day experience a wake-up call when they reach the desperation age when it is too late to have children.

Amanda Marcotte said...

You enjoy your Pap smears? Really?

Pervert.

Melissa Clouthier said...

The local Pregnancy Assistance Center has a post-abortion support group. And it's always full. Planned Parenthood has....nothing. Because abortion is great! Why would anyone need support?

What a load of bull foisted on women. They are told that abortion is a good decision, a wise one, and that it is no big deal. Imagine the shock when she's devastated by the procedure. Imagine the sense of betrayal when she is expected to deal with the procedure like it's a tooth extraction and the women who encouraged her to do this, leave her on her own to deal with the repercussions.

Not only is abortion snuffing out a life, it snuffs out the light in a woman's soul.

Melissa Clouthier said...

Amanda,

Do you have a point?

Amanda Marcotte said...

I'm so impressed by the stupidity of this post, I had to make fun of it.

http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/06/medical-procedures-dont-have-to-be-enjoyable-in-order-to-be-a-social-good/

You got some attention! Sadly, it's not from some dipshit man who hates women, so you have to keep trying harder. Don't you ever feel kind of sad that you strive for the good opinion of misogynists? You shouldn't be so down on yourself. You're not so bad, and if you dropped the "I hate women,too!" act, you could probably get the attention of a better quality of man.

MaxedOutMama said...

I want to know what the point of the PAP smear comment is too. How does Amanda translate a comparison between the moral difference between PAP smears and abortion as "I enjoy PAP smears"?

Hey, Dr. M, you seem to have hit a nerve. Now Amanda wants you to divorce your husband and find a better! Or perhaps she's just suggesting that you sleep around?

Anonymous said...

And now you know another woman who has never regretted her abortion.

Melissa Clouthier said...

Amanda,

I have been very fortunate in that the men I've chosen to have as friends, relationships and my husband are all good men. Not one has been misogynist and some of them have a right to be after how they've been treated by women.

The only one I'm really trying to please with my writing is, well, me. Your approval or disapproval or anyone else's for that matter matters little to me. It's just surprising and gratifying that people show up to read.

Finally, I don't hate women. I am a woman who does not buy the feminist dogma hook, line and sinker. It is distressing that such a profound decision such as abortion is treated so lightly by those who claim to love women. That seems hateful and misguided.

Doctor Science said...

Just to lay out the logic:

Amanda said: "Abortion is as morally loaded as a Pap smear."

Dr.M said: "Amanda says abortion is great!"

Logical conclusion: Dr.M thinks Pap smears are *morally* great.

Amanda's conclusion: Dr.M thinks Pap smears are fun.

IMHO this round goes to Dr.M., especially since not everybody thinks Pap smears are morally great, given that the cancer they detect is basically an STD.

Kacy said...

If for the right reasons then I agree to abortions

Melissa Clouthier said...

Doctor Science,

Amanda said, "Women should be proud of taking care of themselves." I paraphrased with "Abortion is great!" It was hyperbole, but maybe not. I bet Amanda would say that abortion, is in fact, great. It's the people who make a woman feel bad for having an abortion who are wrong.

Having had pap smears over the years, I can say that I don't consider them morally loaded. And I can also say they are no fun. Word to the wise: Don't have a pap smear in your third trimester of pregnancy. They hurt like hell.

Doctor Science said...

I now have no idea what you mean by saying that "Amanda would say abortion is great".

She's saying (and has now re-iterated in her comments) that access to abortion is a moral good, but not that the medical procedure itself is in any way fun or to be undergone unnecessarily.

What kind of "great" do you mean? How is a Pap smear (Amanda's original comparison) "great"?

Anonymous said...

A word from the misogynist (not that I hate women, I actually love them, but I do have a penis, so I must be a misogynist):

Treating abortion in such a cavalier way is just as ridiculous as being cavalier about adoption or keeping a child. Any choice made once conception occurs will have a lifelong impact. There is no way around it, the choice will sleep with you every night, for the rest of your life.

-Little Brother

Dan said...

Not one has been misogynist and some of them have a right to be after how they've been treated by women.

How exactly do you gain a "right" to treat half of the world's population in a mean way, simply because a few individuals mistreated you?
The fact that you posted this implies an incredible disconnect with reality.

yoshi3329 said...

great post! I read Amanda's articles all the time and they are quite rude. No wonder no one like feminists!

http://www.adlynmorrison.blogspot.com/

Denise said...

"Treating abortion in such a cavalier way is just as ridiculous as being cavalier about adoption or keeping a child. Any choice made once conception occurs will have a lifelong impact."

I don't agree that discouraging women from feeling shame about their abortions is the same as treating a decision about a pregnancy lightly. I've made a number of important decisions in my life, most of which I am not ashamed of. I am only ashamed of the bad ones.

Maybe your position is that abortion is a bad decision and therefore women should be ashamed of it. Amanda's position (and mine) is that abortion can and often is a good decision and should have no shame automatically attached to it. Nowhere in my or Amanda's position is it implied that abortion is taken on a whim, tra la la! So please stop accusing us of taking abortion lightly.

Anonymous said...

I would just like to add to this discussion and say that I was an unwanted baby as well as my brothers. We were put in an orphanage and ultimately had to find our own way in this world. Am I glad that I was born? Without a doubt!!! I can't speak for my brothers...both of whom also had very painful childhoods. However, the lessons that I have learned and continue to learn about life, God, others and myself, are lessons that I would not trade for anything. Has it been easy? No! Would I rather be dead? No! A thousand times NO! I am glad that my mother had me.

Darleen said...

Congrats Melissa on rattling St. Amanda of Fornicatus' amoral cage.

dr. science

to be undergone unnecessarily.

Can you clarify? St. Amanda brooks no apostasy where it concerns abortion... ALL of it, from first trimester to partial birth, is never to be criticizes, limited, or even commented on in anything other than laudatory and sympathetic tones.

Otherwise one is a misogynist (if a penis person) or a ankle-licking self-hating female who lets misogynists own her uterus.

I count myself as part of the majority of Americans ... a reluctant choicer who believes abortion should be legal but who also believes the majority of abortions done, for the convenience of the female, are immoral.

Pap smears are something we do for our health ... like visiting the dentist, getting a tb test or flu shot. Abortions are morally (majority) suspect.

The14thOpossum said...

Teh stupid! It burns!

Jesurgislac said...

"Still, I know only two women who haven't regretted their decision, and often the forced decision to abort a child."

Given that you mouth off about finding abortion "repugnant", I doubt if your friends who have had abortions and don't regret the decision in the slightest would confide in you.

Amazing how a noisy echo chamber can drown out what other people are saying, isn't it?

Why do you enjoy Pap smears?

Dan said...

ALL of it, from first trimester to partial birth, is never to be criticizes, limited, or even commented on in anything other than laudatory and sympathetic tones.
...believes abortion should be legal but who also believes the majority of abortions done, for the convenience of the female, are immoral.


... except that the majority of after-first-trimester abortions, including D&E and D&X, are not done "for the convenience of the female". So, maybe you believe that 1st trimester abortions are immoral, because they're done for "convenience", but you can't believe that the only 100 or so past-24 weeks abortions done in this country annually are for convenience.

Unless you seriously think it's "convenient" to carry a fetus for 8 months, gain 20 pounds and stretch marks, have morning sickness, and then undergo a painful medical procedure. Defining convenience in this way is the same as claiming it's "convenient" when someone has a ruptured appendix taken out. There shouldn't be any sort of moral judgment on that.

Louis said...

The comment at the end of the original post describing abortion as a selfish decision misses a key point. Fetuses that women wish to abort but are forced to bring to term become unfortunate children: there are reasons why the mother wishes to abort, and they are generally good. The mother is doing her eventual child (statistically speaking, women who get abortions tend to have children later on) a huge leg up by refusing to have him or her at a time where she can't provide or care for the child properly. And she does so in the face of social opprobrium. That seems to me to be the opposite of selfish

Darleen said...

dan

reading comp and facts are beyond you, eh?

The majority of all abortions take place in the first trimester. Over 90%. And they ARE done for convenience. It is a permanent solution for a temporary condition.

Second trimester abortions done because of medical reasons are tragic and moral. I don't dispute that. D&X done in the third trimester for anything OTHER than medical reasons (life of mom and/or fetus incompatible with life) is a moral evil and should be banned. Yet they are but a tiny fraction of all abortions.

Bring "adoption" up with St. Amanda and watch her froth at "breeding". Yes, better a dead baby than an adopted one.

And what the hell do you know about pregnancy and birth, dan? Oh yes, possible stretch marks are a perfectly reasonable basis to kill a nascent human life.

Geez, what do you think of allowing Down's Syndrome people to continue to live?

Darleen said...

louis

does the word "adoption" exist in your dictionary?

Darleen said...

I wonder if that poor 14 y/o girl who gave birth in the school bathroom and then drowned her newborn had been listening to Barry Obama

I mean, she wasn't really killing a unique human being, she was just refusing her punishment.

Dan said...

reading comp and facts are beyond you, eh?

I'm sorry, did I anywhere in my post make some statement that led to this unwarranted personal attack, Darleen?
If you can't debate without insults, it's usually a clue that your arguments have no merit.

The majority of all abortions take place in the first trimester. Over 90%. And they ARE done for convenience. It is a permanent solution for a temporary condition.

I'm sorry you think children are "temporary conditions". Most children would beg to differ.

Second trimester abortions done because of medical reasons are tragic and moral. I don't dispute that. D&X done in the third trimester for anything OTHER than medical reasons (life of mom and/or fetus incompatible with life) is a moral evil and should be banned. Yet they are but a tiny fraction of all abortions.

And D&X done in the third trimester for anything other han medical reasons already is banned. What's your point, that our laws as currently exist are fine and well written? Yes, I agree.
If, however, your point was that you can disregard 10% of abortions, or rather 100% of abortions that occur after 14 weeks, because they make your "all abortions are immoral" point collapse, I'm afraid I simply cannot agree. You cannot disregard circumstances that don't fit your preconceived argument.

And what the hell do you know about pregnancy and birth, dan? Oh yes, possible stretch marks are a perfectly reasonable basis to kill a nascent human life.

Geez, what do you think of allowing Down's Syndrome people to continue to live?


Again, the personal attacks. This tactic may work on other people you've argued at, but not on me. Personally, I think it's absolutely despicable that you'd bring up Down's Syndrome and euthanasia, even mockingly. That's just disgusting. How do you manage to look at yourself in the mirror?

Louis said...

Darlene: Sure does. But in a fertility-clinic world, and just in general, adoptive parents are not necessarily too hot either. I'm not insulting their efforts or the depth of their commitment, but again: a woman who chooses to have an abortion will probably end up bringing a happier, healthier child into the world. Parents who plan to give up children for adoption neglect prenatal care (and parents who wish to abort may not even have access to such care, regardless of how invested they would be in the health of a child they need to deliberately distance themselves from). The foster system in this country is a godsend but it is far from perfect, and why should a woman be forced to take her potential child into the world at a time she feels is less than suitable? Unless you contend it's already a full person from conception, at which point we'd have a conflict of premises and I apologize for wasting both of our times.

Darleen said...

dan

Stop with the disengenous whining.

I was specifically talking about the majority of abortions and you tried to lecture me on the morality of 2nd/3rd trimester abortions and then gave stretch marks as a legit reason for an abortion.

Yes a child is indeed permanent, but adoption solves the "I can't afford to raise him/her" problem. So, again, for the majority of convenience abortions, the moral alternative is adoption.

Pregancy can have some drawbacks, but it isn't a disease. It is a natural part of life. Even labor and delivery isn't a scary thing for the majority of pregnant women.

But pregnancy means taking a real hard look at oneself and making a decision based on being a responsible adult.

Loads of people can't accept that.

Pity.

Dan said...

Stop with the disengenous whining.

I was specifically talking about the majority of abortions and you tried to lecture me on the morality of 2nd/3rd trimester abortions and then gave stretch marks as a legit reason for an abortion.


You claim I'm being disengenuous[sic], but then completely misrepresent what I said. Please - stretch marks as a legitimate reason for an abortion? Don't make me laugh. If you're not going to respond to my points honestly, why do you expect me to respond to your strawman tactics?

So, turning to your real points, you argue that we should disregard extreme circumstances that do happen every day - pregnancies that end in death for the mother, for example - and only focus on pregnancies that turn out just swell, when making an argument for morality.
Further, you then imply that people who don't disregard those risks, and instead consider fully all of the attendant circumstances, good or bad, are not being "responsible adults".

Frankly, Darlene, I think it is much more responsible to consider all of the possible ramifications of one's actions, weighing them properly in light of how likely they are, and not simply ignoring the ones that are less likely.

Finally, though you characterize it as whining, I still find it disgusting that you would mockingly joke about killing children with Down's Syndrome, and even more disgusting that you ignore my understandably shocked response to it rather than apologizing for such a horrible comment. You know, like a responsible adult would do.

Darleen said...

louis

where are you getting your assertions?

Whether or not a woman's subsequent children will be better off is irrelevant. The first child is gone forever.

I'm not talking about "forcing" women by statute to "breed". I'm stating that culturally we have a duty to not let some females pretend that "choosing" abortion because the pregnancy is "ill-timed" is a morally good choice or a choice with no more importance than picking the perfect pair of sling-backed pumps for the must-attend party of the summer.

No, we don't have a fully formed human being at conception. We do have a unique entity of nascent human life that, without interference, may come to full term (as time progresses the odds of a successful pregnancy increase). I take a rather Judaen view of abortion ... that the fetus gains in rights the closer it gets to viability and that abortion, even done early, should be based on how much a threat the fetus poses the mother.

Melissa's post is less about law and more about culture and that's the POV I'm taking.

Women who choose abortion over adoption because they don't want to be inconvenienced (omigawd, I might have to skip a semester at college! I might have to explain myself to family and friends!) should be ashamed at their moral cowardice. But in this upsidedown world, "responsibility" and "acting like an adult" are anathema to the libertine progressives.

The14thOpossum said...

I still can't get over the fact that having a child and giving it away to possibly never see again is "just an inconvenience" to Darlene. Does she really believe that women who have abortions put as much thought into it as buying a cute pair of shoes? Does she really believe that women don't recognize that it's a medical decision that they and their doctor have to make? Again, the stupid, it burns.

Darleen said...

dan

Unless you seriously think it's "convenient" to carry a fetus for 8 months, gain 20 pounds and stretch marks, have morning sickness, and then undergo a painful medical procedure.

So where was I misconstruing your words? You listed "stretch" marks as part of the litany of dreaded pregancy! reasons to proudly have an abortion.

The majority of women who get pregnant will not die at birth. And no where have I discounted abortion for medical reasons. You want to take the tiny minority of women who have problems with their pregnancies and make it a crisis so no one will have to confront their own moral failings.

I don't/won't condemn the woman as a person for having an abortion. Goodness knows the pressure to have an abortion when the pregnancy is unplanned is enormous. That is heaped upon a woman already dealing with her own "oh crap, what did I do?" But it is particularly perverse to then tell her to "be proud, dammit!" about a procedure done under tragic circumstances.

But we live in a culture that eschews "sin" (ie adults taking responsibility for their moral failings) and replaces it with "health" (ie non-apologies for bad behavior coupled with checking into the rehab clinic of choice -- latest incarnation, Spitzer receiving "therapy" for "sex addiction")

Again, pregnancy is not a medical pathology. You are disengenuous in attempting to portray it as one.

Melissa Clouthier said...

Here is why shame is good:

A person should feel ashamed for having so little foresight that they would put themselves in the position of even contemplating an abortion because they didn't act responsibly during a sex act. If a woman cannot comfortably discuss birth control, she shouldn't be having sex. And if a couple isn't willing to deal with the consequences of sex (a baby) when birth control fails, they shouldn't be having sex. Period.

It is shameful that the vast majority of abortions occur for just the stated reasons above.

Now, I know many women, friends and patients who have had abortions. It is not my place to condemn them. I am sorry for their loss. Do I think it would be better for those babies to be born? Yes, I do. I think that once life is created, it should be protected. And a situation that can seem utterly overwhelming can work out and often does with time.

To me, abortion robs a woman of her feminineness. Only a woman can support and birth a baby--it is the definition of feminine. A woman in this position should be supported and honored. And if she cannot mother, she can give the baby up for adoption.

Darleen said...

the14thpossom

Women who choose adoption over abortion are moral heroes worthy of our applause, support and encouragement. They are women who think "no matter how personally painful for me, this child deserves the best chance for a good life with a loving mom and dad."

Is this the place you are really arguing the moral superiority of the pro-abortion reasoning

"I'd rather have my child dead than with someone else?"

Dan said...

Darlene, I've given you three chances to be an adult and apologize for your disgusting joke about Down's Syndrome children and euthanasia, and you have refused to do so, even characterizing my response as whining.
You talk about sin and shame and responsibility, but refuse to consider your own breaches. I have nothing further to say to you, until you grow up.

Darleen said...

PS possom

teh puerile! it burns!!!1!11!

Darleen said...

Dan

What makes you think I was
"http://www.reason.com/news/show/27886.html">joking
?

Jesurgislac said...

A person should feel ashamed for having so little foresight that they would put themselves in the position of even contemplating an abortion because they didn't act responsibly during a sex act.

Well, fine. How does this apply to girls - and women - who are denied or discouraged access to contraception?

The most successful anti-abortion organisation in the US is Planned Parenthood. Every person PP helps with contraception, every high school class PP runs, every time PP provides emergency contraception - that's abortion prevention on a grand scale.

And yet, not a single "pro-life" organization in the US supports Planned Parenthood or has its own program to supply free contraception on demand to anyone who wants it. Not a single "pro-life" organization even advocates for better, easier access to contraception.

Yes: from the age of 9 (to make sure no one slips the net) all children in the US should get compulsory sex ed including a thorough explanation of how to use contraception, how to get contraception, and what the different merits and risks of contraception are. Parents who don't want their children to attend these classes should get to remove them only if they prove they have already taught their children about sex and contraception to an equivalent standard. Contraception should be available, free, to everyone at any age regardless of income.

When I see a pro-lifer arguing for that program for the US, I'll believe they're beginning to be sincere about wanting to prevent abortions. So far, what I mostly see is pro-lifers vilifying Planned Parenthood.

Darleen said...

Contraception should be available, free, to everyone at any age regardless of income.

I think food should be available, free, to everyone at any age regardless of income.

To save teh starving childrensss!!1!!

Jesurgislac said...

Thanks for making clear to anyone who doubted it, Darleen, that for you being anti-abortion is about forcing a woman through pregnancy against her will, and not at all about any concern for children.

There are children starving in the US.

Pro-lifers tend not to show much concern for those children.

tinfoil hattie said...

So the embryonic cells forming a baby fall into the same category as atypical cells on the cervix related to genital warts (human papilloma virus--HPV causes cellular change and it the cause of cervical cancer). A pap smear has the same significance as an abortion in that they are both uncomfortable procedures? Or is it that both procedures are necessary because they come about due to enjoying sex?


Do you really think women only get pap smears because they suspect they have HPV? Are you serious?

This misinformation is potentially deadly. Some women actually get cervical cancer from things other than having sex!

Can't let truth get in the way of your demagoguery, though, can we.

Anonymous said...

"The local Pregnancy Assistance Center has a post-abortion support group. And it's always full."

And so would their post-pap-smear support group if there were an entire movement out there wholly committed to the goal of making women feel like murderers if they have them. Duh.

My abortion? Had it less than a year after Roe v. Wade. Never a moment of regret, never a glance back. But you know who DID make me feel like junk soon after? The doctor I went to asking for birth control afterwards who demanded why I needed it and walked out of the room when I described the date rape that required the abortion. That man - not any abortion - made me feel horrible and dirty.

And if Dr. Clouthier thinks that those of us who have had these choices thrust upon us are "unfeminine," that's just tough.

I went on to finish college, attend professional school, meet a fine man to whom I've been married for 25 years, and have a wonderful set of daughters. Not too shabby for someone as "unfeminine" as an abortion patient.

And as for that "unfeminine" comment, I would direct the good doctor to Sojurner Truth's speech in 1851 entitled Ain't I a Woman?

the14thOpossum said...

Dr- are we only feminine if we have kids/plan on having kids?

the14thOpossum said...

and Darlene, surely if you support adoption so much, you must be ok with adopting babies to gay couples? I mean, there are so many children waiting to be adopted in the foster care system. You wouldn't want to keep loving parents from accessing those children, would you?

Dave Hunter said...

"To me, abortion robs a woman of her feminineness."

Yes, everyone understands that your opinions on what sex other people are entitled to have are based on mystical abstractions.

Darleen said...

jurs

Wow, I suggest a little less straw in your diet.

I've said several times already that abortion should remain LEGAL. But unless you believe that the law is teh new morality, then you better realize I'm not talking statutes here.

I was mocking your free lunch line. As if free contraceptives are available all over the place (ie they give condoms away by the bushel in every CA public health facility)

If a teen is too timid to buy a box of condoms from the hygene aisle at his/her local supermarket, what makes you think them mature enough to be engaging in sex?

And making sure 9 y/o's know how to put a condom on a banana? but not be taught personal body integrity so s/he can say "no"?

Thanks for increasing my caseload of molested kids.

Darleen said...

possum

I applaud gay couples with adopted kids. I applaud singles who adopt kids.

The further away from long-term fostercare and institutionalization the better. (btw one of the biggest reasons kids languish in foster care is NOT due to lack of parents willing to adopt, but due to social workers unwilling to release kids for adoption)

Do you believe in cross-"racial" adoption? Do you believe in private adoption?

Darleen said...

typo

should read "As if free contraceptives are not available"

the14thOpossum said...

Darlene, dunno why you're questioning me on my beliefs on cross-racial adoption or anything else. I questioned your beliefs on gay adoption because you wrote that children need a mother and father above. Stick to questioning what I wrote, but don't expect me to care to answer you, just as I didn't expect an answer from you.

Darleen said...

shorter dave hunter

"I get to have my opinions on sex behavior, you? not so much."

tanglethis said...

I'm confused by the turn of phrase "believe in abortion." Abortion isn't a doctrine or an ideology or even a diety that one could believe in or not. It's a medical procedure.

As a medical procedure, you can believe various things about it: you can believe it is immoral or not; you can believe that it should be legal or not. The former is a belief that depends on other beliefs about when life begins; the latter depends on whether you really want the government to make a difficult decision like that for you.

If you're stuck on the phrase "believe in," then the correct object of the preposition is "choice." As in, "I believe in choice." It's a very different statement than the one you're trying to put the mouths of others.

Darleen said...

possum

How tolerant of you. I get to answer your questions, but you don't have to state where you come from.

A child deserves first crack at a mother and father. After that, it's any loving family unit rather than languishing in state care.

My cross-racial question is relevant if you have any real idea of what the state of adoption is currently.

But hey, I guess you're into stereotypes and counting coup rather than reality.

heh.

dan said...

The local Pregnancy Assistance Center has a post-abortion support group. And it's always full.

I can only assume they have no such post-delivery support group, because delivering a baby is always a wonderful and not-at-all emotionally fraught and traumatic experience.

That "post-partum depression" you hear about is just a myth those Evil Feminists made up to scare you.

the14thOpossum said...

heh Darlene's gonna attack me and say I'm into stereotypes! I'm so hurt! Your lack of knowledge on every single one of my stances in regards to adoption does not trouble me Darlene, nor does it hamper our discussion. To keep the discussion on track and respond to what you've said, what do you mean by being into counting coup rather than reality? And why do you automatically assume that because I'm ok with gay adoptions that I must be against cross-racial adoptions?

Darleen said...

possom

Did I say you were against cross-"racial" adoptions? No more than you were saying I was against same-sex adoptions with your question.

You intolerance of answering doesn't bode well of your good faith creds in debate.

I lack knowledge on your stance? Well, I'm sure then you'll be happy to answer the question and enlighten everyone here.

Darleen said...

oh dan?

Google is your friend.

Nice straw sandwich though. You do seem to need more fiber in your diet.

dan said...

A person should feel ashamed for having so little foresight that they would put themselves in the position of even contemplating an abortion because they didn't act responsibly during a sex act. If a woman cannot comfortably discuss birth control, she shouldn't be having sex. And if a couple isn't willing to deal with the consequences of sex (a baby) when birth control fails, they shouldn't be having sex.

So it's someone's fault for not using birth control, but if they use birth control and something happens anyway, it's still their fault?

Now, I know many women, friends and patients who have had abortions. It is not my place to condemn them.

Except that you just did, in really vehement terms. Or do you just operate by some standards where "A person" is somehow not the same thing as any actual people you actually know? Have you told these friends of yours how "ashamed" you think they ought to be?

dan said...

Google is your friend.

Thank you for both missing and making my point.

Anonymous said...

Yes a child is indeed permanent, but adoption solves the "I can't afford to raise him/her" problem. So, again, for the majority of convenience abortions, the moral alternative is adoption.

I would take this argument a lot more seriously if the anti-choice crowd were lined up around the block to adopt the already overwhelming number of children stuck in orphanages and foster homes.

This also ignores the fact that you are granting more rights and autonomy to a clump of cells than the fully human woman who you want to force to host them.

Pregancy can have some drawbacks, but it isn't a disease. It is a natural part of life. Even labor and delivery isn't a scary thing for the majority of pregnant women.

"Some drawbacks"? 529,000 women died from childbirth or childbirth related complications in America in the last year, and that's just 1% of maternal deaths in the entire world.

Cancer is a "natural part of life", too, but we don't condemn people for removing something from their body that they don't want there.

Women who choose abortion over adoption because they don't want to be inconvenienced (omigawd, I might have to skip a semester at college! I might have to explain myself to family and friends!) should be ashamed at their moral cowardice. But in this upsidedown world, "responsibility" and "acting like an adult" are anathema to the libertine progressives.

Yes, I am one of those people who have no problem with abortion for any reason at any stage of pregnancy. A woman's body belongs to herself alone. That trumps everything else.

I would hardly classify nine months of pregnancy as a minor inconvenience. And, yes, being forced to hold back, or abandon, your college education is worse than having an abortion, in my book. Most women who get abortions go on to (or already) have children, and a big part of being able to care for those children is having the education needed for a career.

Women who make this choice aren't doing so lightly. They are being responsible--to themselves and to their future families. I'm always astonished at how anti-choicers think women are doing this on a lark. You clearly don't have a high opinion of women.

Darleen said...

I'm confused by the turn of phrase "believe in abortion."

IMHO, it's verbal shorthand, even as it is an inelegant as you further state.

It's almost as annoying as "right to an abortion". No such thing.

Right to seek an abortion under certain circumstances but no more right TO an abortion than a right TO a ham sandwich.

yourmom said...

seriously how bout if people who dont want abortions, dont like them, think they're EVIL whatever, just dont get them? sounds easy enough to me

Anonymous said...

To me, abortion robs a woman of her feminineness. Only a woman can support and birth a baby--it is the definition of feminine.

So you're saying that women who have had abortions are now men?

Wow, no wonder the feminists are hosting abortion parties--at least afterwards, they'll have all the same rights that men do!

Jesurgislac said...

As if free contraceptives are available all over the place

Darlene, you're really that ignorant? There are pharmacists in the US who have refused to fill prescriptions for contraception. There are women who can't afford to buy contraception. There are girls who not only can't afford to buy contraception, they're living where they're not legally allowed to under the age of consent.

A person can spend a lot of time maundering over whether someone ought to be "allowed" free contraception. But if their primary goal is preventing abortion, they won't spend too much time.

Darleen said...

anonymous

I'm in awe of your moral idiocy.

You're in favor of abortion at ANY stage for ANY reason? So what's the line between D&X and infanticide... 4 inches?

And so nice equating a human infant with cancer. Again, moral idiocy.

And couples ARE lined up around the block to adopt. But you seem to ignore, willfully, that a lot of kids languish in foster-care/institutions because the state refuses to release them (due to foot-dragging on severing the egg/sperm-donor rights).

And, yes, being forced to hold back, or abandon, your college education is worse than having an abortion, in my book

Wow ... skip a semester or kill a kid. What a hero!

Nice to see how you've moved from just self-justification to making convenience abortions a preferred "moral choice."

Dan said...

Darlene, you're really that ignorant? There are pharmacists in the US who have refused to fill prescriptions for contraception. There are women who can't afford to buy contraception. There are girls who not only can't afford to buy contraception, they're living where they're not legally allowed to under the age of consent.

But see those girls should just not have sex, ever. And if they do then they're sluts who should be punished no wait I'm sorry I mean, "deal with the consequences."

See how complicated issues become simple when you just don't give a shit about other people?

Dan said...

skip a semester or kill a kid. What a hero!

So the de rigeur followup: What jail term do you think would be appropriate for a woman who has an abortion. Ten years? Twenty? How long should that woman you yourself just said is killing a kid spend in prison?

Darleen said...

There are pharmacists in the US who have refused to fill prescriptions for contraception.

As is their right under the same professional standards that allow them to refuse to fill prescriptions for assisted suicide and lethal injections. HOWEVER, the pharmacy is obligation to have another pharmacist fill the prescription.

And what IS your problem with condoms?

Excuse me if I'm a little uncomfortable with beta testing oral contraceptives on younger and younger girls because guys don't want to be bothered with that bit of latex.

And your "free contraceptives for everyone!" is very close to the idea that because teens are going to drink anyway the parents should host the keggers for their kids.

Darleen said...

Dan

What term? I have said repeatedly that I want abortion to remain legal as per Roe v Wade (unrestricted first trimester for adult women, legal constraints thereafter).

You again keep illustrating the paucity of your "arguments" by the continued lying about my position.

Original Dan said...

Hey, other Dan, bad form to use the same nick as someone else in the thread. Confuses people.

-the Dan who is still waiting for Darlene to take responsibility for her disgusting joke about killing people with Down's Syndrome

the14thOpossum said...

I still wondering how I'm so interested in counting coup, Darleen, and what exactly you mean by that. What definition are you going by?

Darleen said...

But see those girls should just not have sex, ever. And if they do then they're sluts who should be punished no wait I'm sorry I mean, "deal with the consequences."

hmmmm.... maybe dan believes if girls actually decided to believe in their own worth and integrity he might be less able to get some "don't worry, baby, if anything happens I'll hold your hand at the free clinic."

and yes, danno, I'm mocking you and your faux womyn's rights stance.

yourmom said...

what the hell, so darleeeeeen if women have sex, they have no integrity? do you REALLY believe no woman wants to have sex, or that every woman wants to wait till theyre heterosexually married? just because this might be the right choice for some, does not mean it fits for everyone. I have had sex before marriage, I still have worth. My worth is not measured by the intactness of my hymen on my wedding day.

Darleen said...

possom

Good lord, could you be more pedantic?

Care now to enlighten the unwashed masses with your Proper Adoption Code?

Darleen said...

the hell, so darleeeeeen if women have sex, they have no integrity?

Jaysus on a Pony, don't Proggs read?

Do you believe the majority of teen girls are having sex are doing it because they have a high self-esteem?

1 in 4 teen girls has an STD! ONE IN FOUR.

And it certainly not due to a lack of birth control pills.

Not when our culture treats self-restraint as some kind of disease and virginity or chasitity as some horror to be cured as soon as possible.

Anonymous said...

wait...so, if women who have abortions are no longer women, are they...men? trans? do we get our own bathrooms now?

and also, since i've had my tubes tied and will NEVER bring a child to term or birth one...Can i get my extra 40-odd cents on the dollar back? They're still paying me like i was a WOMAN, or something.

Darleen said...

yourmom

your 14 yearold daughter comes to you and says, "I have an 18 y/o boyfriend and we're going to have sex in my bedroom."

You're ok with that?

yourmom said...

DARLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEn
it's 3am! DO YOU KNOW WHERE YOUR KIDS ARE AND WHO THEY ARE FUCKING?

Anonymous said...

You're in favor of abortion at ANY stage for ANY reason? So what's the line between D&X and infanticide... 4 inches?

Pretty much, Here's the thing, though--this never happens.

The One True Vegan said...

also, i have to say...
i LIKE sex. it's FUN, especially with my current partner, who's quite talented.
and, i'm fairly certain i'm not the only one.
i don't do it to bolster "low self-esteem" or to "buy" a man's love. i don't do it because i've been misguided by Teh EEEEEVIL librul media.
i do it BECAUSE I LIKE IT.
and the hand-wringing prudes will pry my sex life from my cold, dead hands.

Anonymous said...

i'm intrigued by your jump from "abortion should not be morally loaded" to "abortion is fuuuun!"

so...root canals aren't morally loaded either. are they, too, fuuuuun?

it turns out things don't have to be "wrong" to hurt...

Dave Hunter said...

"I get to have my opinions on sex behavior, you? not so much."

Darleen, you can "have" your opinions. Not sure how I'm taking them from you. Am I not supposed to criticize when these sorts of opinions come to rest on mystical gobbledy-gook?

Keep in mind that the original post is a response to someone else's opinion that people be freed from shame over their abortions. The response: no they must ALL feel shame.

Keep in mind also that this blogger follows her opinon on whom she believes is entitled to have sex with the sentence "Period." In other words, her opinions must be taken as the truth. (Even though they rest on mystical gobbledy-gook.)

Darleen said...

vegan

Sex with a loving partner is about the best thing there is. Good for you that you're adult enough to do it because you want to.

Are you, though, disgreeing that culture has any affect on behavior and that for teens a sex-ploitive culture might have adverse behavior consequences?

Do you believe parents have an obligation to their children to parent them, including inculcating self-worth, morality, duty and honor?

Or are parents just "adult friends" there to fulfill every childish whim?

Darleen said...

Here's the thing, though--this never happens

liar

Anonymous said...

prove it

The One True Vegan said...

Sex with a loving partner is about the best thing there is
for what it's worth, my partner and i aren't in it for "love." we're in it for, well, sex. he's my sexual partner, not my husband or boyfriend.

including inculcating self-worth, morality, duty and honor?

my parents did this without ever teaching me that teh sexxx was bad, in fact they encouraged me to experiment (safely) as much as possible before marrying (though i don't plan ever to do that)...

so i'm not sure why you think it's either/or. it's both/and.

Darleen said...

who said anything about sex=bad? It's kind of like teaching food=bad. Yet responsible parents teach proper nutrition, how to cook, appropriate behavior when it concerns satisfying hunger. Why should sex be different?

My statement still stands. Sex is best with a loving partner. A fuckbuddy is fun, but it's not the best.

YMMV

Darleen said...

You don't plan to marry?

revealing.

The One True Vegan said...

well, i actually DID marry.
didn't like it. got a divorce. don't plan to make that mistake again.
i'm interested in what that supposedly "reveals"...probably just that i'm even LESS of a "real" woman than you'd think.

and by the way..sex with my loving, married partner? was awful, because he was terrible at it.

yourmom said...

DARLEEEEEEEEEn says marrying is the highest thing a woman can hope to do! except havin the babeez of course

Darleen said...

original dan

Who said I was joking?

Darleen said...

hey mom

I said "partner" you know, as "spouse"

a loving committed relationship is the best for both men and women

stop drinking your kid's bong water

Darleen said...

btw, urmom

you have some problem with my name back behind your cloak of anonymity?

yourmom said...

DARLEEEEEEEn is bothered by me! teehee. and she assumes im a mom! names are to be taken literally only in darleen land! and teh sex is EVUL unless its between biblically santioned married couples!

Darleen said...

Funny thing, I can walk through a cemetary and reading plaques see "loving husband" "loving wife" "sister" "mother" "father" "brother"

I've never seen business resumes or college degrees enscribed on such rememberances.

Darleen said...

whatever, momtroll. I'm just curious about your cowardice. I guess I'm just some standin for whatever juvenile issues you have to work out against teh hated xtians (not once in this thread have I mentioned Bible or church or sex as evil or be confined to marriage or advocated any legislation)

Just stop drinking the bongwater, whomever it belongs to, eh?

yourmom said...

DARLEEEEEEEn yes i am trolling you, it took you this long to figure it out? who's drinking the bongwater now? and seriously, even stoners don't drink bong water so get your references right! my cowardice? it's a WEBPAGE. you are not some "hero" for stating your views on a webpage and i am not a coward for mocking you. we are just people wasting time online arguing. the good part of that tho, is that I think it's hilarious!

Darleen said...

vegan

very very interesting.

Darleen said...

momtroll

See, as an adult I usually take peoples initial arguments at face value until proven otherwise.

You have all the courage of a six year old scribbling dirty words on the neighbor's back fence then thinking the adult stupid for not noticing right away.

I'm not a "hero" for stating views. But it does say much more about you that you are being profane under the cloak of anonymity while I write under my own legal name.

I am a mom. Of four beautiful, successful, honorable daughters. Stepmom to one fantastic son. Grandmother to twin boys. One half of a loving marriage to a wonderful man.

I understand that probably enrages others because of the dreaded heteronormativity of it all.

Own it, troll, then get some help for your bigotry.

momtroll! said...

hahahaha i'm SUCH a horrid bigot! you'd almost think i had no family at ALL and must clearly hate all people with families! or wait, that's dummy DARLEEEEEEn trying to project her idea of what i am onto me :P keep trying to upset me DARLEEEEEEEn im laughin harder and harder :D try not to take yourself so goddamned seriously, maybe youd have more fun

momtroll! said...

and legal name? what's your last name if you're so brave? how bout address? social security number? credit card number :P are you so brave and adult!

Darleen said...

momtroll

is this where you start saying "neener neener"?

Or maybe you're more of a "nyah nyah nyah" type, turned up to eleven of course.

CUZ OF TEH PATRIARCHY!!!1!!

poor baby, have some pie

momtroll! said...

now you're getting it, dumbass! are you gonna get in the kitchen and cook me some fucking pie, granma? i like apple, but ill accept pumpkin

Darleen said...

ah, poor baby doesn't know how to use the innernets

surprise surprise

yourmom said...

DARLEEEEEEEn is losing her mind, if she had one haha the last comment doesn't even make sense. gramma needs some lessons on those intertubes! ill come to your house and pick up the pie, just give me your address, old lady! aren't you so bold, using your legal name!

Anonymous said...

INNERNETS

Darleen said...

sweetcheeks, don't teach your grandma to suck eggs.

Or how to code.

isn't your real mom wondering when she gets a crack at the puter? 'specially since she foots the dial-up bill?

oh...and wipe the cheetos prints off the the keyboard

and use a napkin, not your sweatpants

Anonymous said...

OH HAI AM I LATE FOR THE SERIOUS BUSINESS OF INTERNET(S)?

Anonymous said...

Who the fuck starts a sentence with "Or"?

Darleen said...

momtroll was about to honor us with a song

Anonymous said...

lol. Silly Darleen, I do not know who this YourMom person is. I am simply one of the many billions of users on the Innernets.

Also, I've never eaten cheetos in my life, and I don't wear sweatpants either.

I'm glad you're amazed by my HTML skillz, perhaps you would like to see my CSS or java sometime ;)

momtroll! said...

hahaha have the site owner post the IPs, if you can't believe two people on the intertubes would find you hilarious granny! did you forget to take your meds today, or are you always this awesome?

Darleen said...

do not know who this YourMom person

Neither do I. Why do you assume I was addressing you?

Watch that hubris, eh? Sometimes, it is not about you.

Anonymous said...

That was awesome Darleen. Maybe we can speak about the innernets sometime?

Also: I am King of Threads

yourmom said...

i deem this post threadjacked! in the name of all that is good and right in the world! innertubes untie! hahhahaha and DARLEEEEEEEn you know who i am, im YOUR MOM

Anonymous said...

Were no strangers to love
You know the rules and so do i
A full commitments what Im thinking of
You wouldnt get this from any other guy

I just wanna tell you how Im feeling
Gotta make you understand

* never gonna give you up
Never gonna let you down
Never gonna run around and desert you
Never gonna make you cry
Never gonna say goodbye
Never gonna tell a lie and hurt you

Weve know each other for so long
Your hearts been aching
But youre too shy to say it
Inside we both know whats been going on
We know the game and were gonna play it

And if you ask me how Im feeling
Dont tell me youre too blind to see

(* repeat)

Give you up. give you up
Give you up, give you up
Never gonna give
Never gonna give, give you up
Never gonna give
Never gonna give, five you up

I just wanna tell you how Im feeling
Gotta make you understand

Anonymous said...

Were no strangers to love
You know the rules and so do i
A full commitments what Im thinking of
You wouldnt get this from any other guy

I just wanna tell you how Im feeling
Gotta make you understand

* never gonna give you up
Never gonna let you down
Never gonna run around and desert you
Never gonna make you cry
Never gonna say goodbye
Never gonna tell a lie and hurt you

Weve know each other for so long
Your hearts been aching
But youre too shy to say it
Inside we both know whats been going on
We know the game and were gonna play it

And if you ask me how Im feeling
Dont tell me youre too blind to see

(* repeat)

Give you up. give you up
Give you up, give you up
Never gonna give
Never gonna give, give you up
Never gonna give
Never gonna give, five you up

I just wanna tell you how Im feeling
Gotta make you understand

Anonymous said...

Were no strangers to love
You know the rules and so do i
A full commitments what Im thinking of
You wouldnt get this from any other guy

I just wanna tell you how Im feeling
Gotta make you understand

* never gonna give you up
Never gonna let you down
Never gonna run around and desert you
Never gonna make you cry
Never gonna say goodbye
Never gonna tell a lie and hurt you

Weve know each other for so long
Your hearts been aching
But youre too shy to say it
Inside we both know whats been going on
We know the game and were gonna play it

And if you ask me how Im feeling
Dont tell me youre too blind to see

(* repeat)

Give you up. give you up
Give you up, give you up
Never gonna give
Never gonna give, give you up
Never gonna give
Never gonna give, five you up

I just wanna tell you how Im feeling
Gotta make you understand

Anonymous said...

Were no strangers to love
You know the rules and so do i
A full commitments what Im thinking of
You wouldnt get this from any other guy

I just wanna tell you how Im feeling
Gotta make you understand

* never gonna give you up
Never gonna let you down
Never gonna run around and desert you
Never gonna make you cry
Never gonna say goodbye
Never gonna tell a lie and hurt you

Weve know each other for so long
Your hearts been aching
But youre too shy to say it
Inside we both know whats been going on
We know the game and were gonna play it

And if you ask me how Im feeling
Dont tell me youre too blind to see

(* repeat)

Give you up. give you up
Give you up, give you up
Never gonna give
Never gonna give, give you up
Never gonna give
Never gonna give, five you up

I just wanna tell you how Im feeling
Gotta make you understand

Anonymous said...

Were no strangers to love
You know the rules and so do i
A full commitments what Im thinking of
You wouldnt get this from any other guy

I just wanna tell you how Im feeling
Gotta make you understand

* never gonna give you up
Never gonna let you down
Never gonna run around and desert you
Never gonna make you cry
Never gonna say goodbye
Never gonna tell a lie and hurt you

Weve know each other for so long
Your hearts been aching
But youre too shy to say it
Inside we both know whats been going on
We know the game and were gonna play it

And if you ask me how Im feeling
Dont tell me youre too blind to see

(* repeat)

Give you up. give you up
Give you up, give you up
Never gonna give
Never gonna give, give you up
Never gonna give
Never gonna give, five you up

I just wanna tell you how Im feeling
Gotta make you understand

Anonymous said...

Were no strangers to love
You know the rules and so do i
A full commitments what Im thinking of
You wouldnt get this from any other guy

I just wanna tell you how Im feeling
Gotta make you understand

* never gonna give you up
Never gonna let you down
Never gonna run around and desert you
Never gonna make you cry
Never gonna say goodbye
Never gonna tell a lie and hurt you

Weve know each other for so long
Your hearts been aching
But youre too shy to say it
Inside we both know whats been going on
We know the game and were gonna play it

And if you ask me how Im feeling
Dont tell me youre too blind to see

(* repeat)

Give you up. give you up
Give you up, give you up
Never gonna give
Never gonna give, give you up
Never gonna give
Never gonna give, five you up

I just wanna tell you how Im feeling
Gotta make you understand

Original Dan said...

Darlene: Who said I was joking?

So, rather than apologize for your joke about euthanizing Down's children, you unabashedly admit that you were serious.

You're a disgusting human being. You actually have the audacity to judge others and espouse what is morally right or wrong. May god have mercy on your soul, Darlene.

Darleen said...

What's the problem, orginal dan? Startled that someone who realizes where the mentality that refuses to consider a viable fetus as deserving of consideration would actually point out the logical consequences of that train of thought embodied in fellow pro-abortion Pete Singer?

Yes, O.D., I am the "disgusting human" because I know there are people out there that see people I know as "non-persons." Just shoot the messenger rather than confront your own moral ambiguity.

O.D. said...

The problem, Darlene, is your instance on joking about killing people while some of us were having a rational debate. The problem, Darlene, is your attempt to derail a conversation though hyperbole, insults, and morally repugnant comments. And the problem, Darlene, is your complete inability to own up to this.
You say you're a grandmother. How come you act like a child?

Darleen said...

OD

Yep, just keep shooting the messenger. Just keep pretending people like Singer do not exist and that stretch marks are a legitimate reason (among reasons, natch) for an abortion.

Just keep pretending this all doesn't exist.

Ooooh, look over there! Pretty bunny .... !

Darleen said...

PS Original Dna

again, what makes you such an expert on what a woman experiences during pregancy to declare it a pathology?

momtroll! said...

DARLEEEEEEEEEEn is such an expert on pathology that she doesn't realize this is only the third mention of it in the comments and the other two were her! woooooooo but of course, original dna must have written about what an expert he is on pregnancy! oh wait, he never said he was an expert on pregnancy? someone get grammy her meds, shes on teh computer again!

Anonymous said...

Darleen, you're a bore.
The way you write, it's a chore.

You annoy me to no end.
So goodbye my illogical friend.

We'll see what other nonsense you have in store.

Also:
What does Snoop Dogg use while he's gardening?

His hoes.

P.S. Innernets.

Darleen said...

Unless you seriously think it's "convenient" to carry a fetus for 8 months, gain 20 pounds and stretch marks, have morning sickness, and then undergo a painful medical procedure. Defining convenience in this way is the same as claiming it's "convenient" when someone has a ruptured appendix taken out.

you argue (sic) that we should disregard extreme circumstances that do happen every day - pregnancies that end in death for the mother

hmmmm.... sounds like pregancy=pathology.

YMMV, particularly when comparing a fetus to a tumor, ingrown toenail or diseased appendix

Darleen said...

buh-bye, anon

Anonymous said...

Here's the thing, though--this never happens

liar


Really? So you think there are women getting abortions at nine months outside of medical necessity?

Darleen said...

well, anon, since the "inventor" of the procedure, Dr. James McMahon, was upfront that he personally had performed elective 3rd trimester d&x's, why should we believe they were not still happening up until the SCOTUS upheld the partial birth abortion ban?

Doctor Science said...

replying to Darleen @11:07.

By "unnecessarily" I mean that only nutjobs would have a medical procedure they (the patients) don't think is necessary in some way. Only a seriously disturbed person would have any medical procedure for *fun*, which is one of the possible meanings of saying that something is "great", which is part of the confusion that started this whole exchange.

When a woman gets an abortion, she is doing it for her health, just as much as when she has a root canal or a Pap smear or a vaccination against HPV. Doing things for one's own health & physical well-being is always selfish to some degree -- that's why there were a bunch of early Christian saints who were actively admired for their lack of personal hygiene, it proved they were detached from mere physical concerns.

Not to mention that some women also choose abortion for the sake of the children they already have, becaus they don't have the money or health to support an additional child. That's not "selfishness", that's "taking care of your family".

Doctor Science said...

[trying again, without italics]

I think the most interesting point in Dr.M's post is this:

"Removing the shame would simply increase the number of abortions and multiply the regret of many more people, who, stopped by their conscience, opt to have a child and make it work instead of choosing abortion."

Dr.M. is pointing out that many women who choose to bear a child from an unexpected pregnancy regret *that* decision and wish they had had an abortion, instead. This particular regret is, of course, much worse than any post-abortion angst, because it involves the ongoing relationship of parent to child. "I wish I hadn't had *you*" is a much more poisonous bitterness than "I wish I hadn't had that abortion".

Dr.M. seems to be arguing that one of the bad consequences of shame-free abortions is that women who choose to bear children will be more bitter about *that* choice.

What I have actually seen is the opposite: as abortion became easier over the decades, mothers were more likely to have children because they actually *want* them, less likely to feel regretful and bitter about their choice. I saw much more of the bitterness Dr.M. (rightly) fears in my mother's generation, who had children in the 1940s and 50s, than in my own, who started having kids in the late 1970s.

Anonymous said...

Women like you call other women who get abortions sluts and babykillers, shaming them as surely as if you painted red letter "A"s on their chest, and then point out how women that get abortions feel ashamed of their decision. Brava.

Anonymous said...

My mother had an illegal abortion in 1965, eight years before Roe vs. Wade. She was 17 years old. Before the procedure the doctor's assistant asked her out. In the next eighteen years she graduated from high school, then college, worked as a librarian, a senatorial aide, a newspaper editor and a gallery curator. I was born when she was 34. There is no chance whatsoever that she would have met my father and given birth to me if she hadn't terminated her first pregnancy. There is an enormous chance that if she had chosen to have and raise that child she would not have had the freedom to continue her education or end her relationship with the scumbag who raped her when she was 17 years old. Was she selfish for ending an unplanned pregnancy, choosing instead to have children under her own terms? Am I selfish for appreciating that she did?

Darleen said...

When a woman gets an abortion, she is doing it for her health, just as much as when she has a root canal or a Pap smear or a vaccination against HPV.

When a woman has an abortion because she broke up with her boyfriend or is a teen who doesn't want her parents' disappointed in her behavior, that's not health.

Or you are stretching the definition of "health" out of all proportion.

If a woman wants to have an abortion in the first trimester for any reason, it is legal and should remain legal. Just please a little honesty on what is really going on.

Darleen said...

anon @ 10:14

My daughter's best friend got pregnant by her boyfriend at age 15. Her parents put a lot of pressure on her to abort. She refused, believing she had a duty to do right by the baby she helped create. She believed that her child shouldn't suffer because she screwed up. My daughter was her labor coach and this brave young woman (such an wise acceptance of adult responsibility proved, indeed, she was a woman rather than a girl) gave birth to a healthy baby girl on New Year's day ten years ago. She arranged an adoption with a loving mom and dad who send her letters and pics of the girl she gave birth to. This young woman has gone onto college, full scholarship and great success. Getting pregnant made her face the reality that her relationship with her then boyfriend was one of undue dependency, and the fact of facing up to her responsibility to the life she had helped create allowed her to break from the relationship and make a better life for herself AND she made possible a loving family.

She did the moral thing and didn't punish her child for her mistakes.

Life should always be the default position, barring actual medical problems.

RizeliOrico said...

If a woman wants to have an abortion in the first trimester for any reason, it is legal and should remain legal. Just please a little honesty on what is really going on.

Well, if you think abortion really is murder, you're being inconsistent with wanting it to be legal-- unless you have no problem with other murders being legal too.

Darleen said...

if you think abortion really is murder,

care to find my quote where I say it is?

First trimester abortion is killing of nascent human life. "Killing" is a morally neutral behavior, context provides the morality of it. Killing can range the gamut of immorality (murder) to amorality (the death of others due to an accident) to a moral good (self-defense).

Add to that that the law is a floor, not a ceiling. There are many immoral behaviors that are not the province of the law - such as adultery.

I understand that today's culture deliberately muddles morality and legality in order to allow people to disdain and deflect any talk about ethics and morality (hey, if it's legal, it's ok!) but I make clear distinctions about both.

Darleen said...

oh, to add

nascent human life is not the moral equivalent of born human life. Killing a four week gestational embryo is not the moral equivalent of drowning a newborn in a toilet.

Jesurgislac said...

My daughter's best friend got pregnant by her boyfriend at age 15.

So - contrary to your wild claims - your daughter's best friend didn't have access to contraception, and couldn't get her boyfriend to use a condom. (Pro-lifers tend to focus on supplying condoms - not that their organisations actually do anything about this - because taking the pill is exclusively under the control of the woman, and her male partner doesn't have to know she's doing it.)

A 15-year-old girl risks permanent damage to her health if she has a baby.

I am pro-choice: I would never force anyone to have an abortion, no matter what risk to their health having the baby would be.

But it is grossly irresponsible for a girl that age to have a baby, risking her health and the lives of her future, planned and wanted children: it is both hateful and grossly irresponsible for adults to shame her into having the baby by telling her that having an abortion would be wrong. Shame on you, Darleen.

(What happened to the girl's baby? Did she become a full-time mom, wrecking her chances of going to college and her future career? Was she "encouraged" to give it up for adoption, at what horrible cost to her own emotional wellbeing? I notice your concern for her stopped once she delivered - typical pro-lifers.)

Jesurgislac said...

She did the moral thing and didn't punish her child for her mistakes.

Whoops, Darleen - a slip! now you're claiming that if she'd had an abortion in the first trimester, she would have been "punishing her child for her mistakes" - when the child didn't exist and never would.

The more I think about this hateful little story, the more disgusted I am with you, Darleen. This poor girl was told having an abortion at fifteen would be "immoral" - would be "punishing her child" for her "mistake".

She had sex. This isn't a "mistake" - this is something teenagers do. She didn't have access to contraception, or she didn't have parents who would support her, and her boyfriend didn't use a condom. All of these are other people's mistakes, not hers.

At 15, she is a child. She's not old enough physiologically to go through pregnancy without risking permanent, serious damage to her health. Yet she was surrounded by adults who, disgustingly, told her that her primary concern ought not to be her own welfare, that their primary concern was not her welfare: that she ought to carry the fetus to term and deliver, because doing anything else was "punishing a child".

We're talking about child abuse here - a child who was abused by adults. I am not talking about her boyfriend, though I'd be interested to know how old he was: I am talking about you, Darleen - you were a child abuser, you confess to it, you're proud of it: that you told that child that taking care of her own health and wellbeing by having an abortion would be immoral. You disgust me.

Darleen said...

jesur

you really are a moral cretin, aren't you? You make snide claims at total odds at what I wrote. The girl's parents tried to force her to have an abortion. She's gone on to a very successful life ... college, career, family. She is the one that decided to adopt the child out, even over the strenuous objections of the boyfriend's parents.

added facts: Yes, she had access to contraceptives and didn't use them (her parent's were the usual liberal, oh honey, we know you're going to do this, here carry condoms). The family never went to church, never thought to tell her that maybe having a relationship at her age was not a good idea. Her parents were nice people (I knew them) but they were like too many of my boomer generation, more interested in being their kid's friend then in being a parent.

She's not old enough physiologically to go through pregnancy without risking permanent, serious damage to her health

Listen, asswipe, I don't know who you think you're fooling, but she was a healthy young woman who had prenatal care and delivered a healthy, full term baby. Are risks greater to a young woman under 17? Yes, but pregnancy is not pathological and the majority of pregnancies will be uneventful.

You're the hateful little moron that figures the best thing for this girl is for her to have been dragged kicking by her parents to an abortion clinic in order to remain in a bad relationship with her 15 y/o boyfriend.

I told this young woman nothing. She had already made her mind up on her own ... indeed she knew her parents would force her to have an abortion so she hid her pregnancy from everyone until she was too far
along for her parents to do exactly what you are doing -- Berating her for not "getting rid of it."

Sex IS a mistake, sex is NOT appropriate behavior for either girls or boys who are not prepared for the possibility of pregnancy.

ONE in FOUR teen girls have STDs, jesu ... and you are of the mindset that "hey, that's just what teens do." I'd say you're calling me a "child abuser" is a little guilty projection on your part.

Funny, too, your bigotry and hatred at stay-at-home moms.

Darleen said...

more:

That girl, with moral courage beyond her years, allowed her child to live and created a loving family. She rejected being a victim and rejected making her unborn child a sacrifice for her behavior. Yet proggs are horrified she didn't have an abortion.

It is educational to watch compassionate progressives spew bile and hatred at women who don't walk lockstep with their puerile entitlement ethos.

Darleen said...

hmmm....

Where I work I've seen cases of adult men who prey on teen girls

jesur line of "reasoning" that sex is just a-ok for teen girls (everybody does it, nothing wrong, stop being such a prude and hungup)and pregnancy involves a tumor rather than nascent human life (just get rid of it, it doesn't really exist anyway) is what these girls report as the "reasoning" adult men use to pressure them into sex.

We know Planned Parenthood enables adult/minor sex.

Something you need to confess, jesur?

Jesurgislac said...

Something you need to confess, jesur?

My undying hatred for child abusers - you, for example, Darleen.

You abused a trusting fifteen year old girl. You got her to have a baby, and told her that risking permanent damage to her health and wellbeing was the moral thing to do. You are a child abuser who made herself complicit in the statutory rape of a 15-year-old girl. You disgust me.

Darleen said...

You abused a trusting fifteen year old girl. You got her to have a baby,

You're insane. I had no role in her decision. I didn't even know about the pregnancy until my daughter told me her friend asked her to be her labor coach.

She defied her own parents to have the baby.

You would force her to have an abortion, wouldn't you, jesur? How accomplished an ephebophile are you?

kac90b said...

Adoption and abortion are not the same thing. I've done both. I would recommend abortion.

Darleen said...

I would recommend abortion

ah, a member of the "better off dead" club.

and non-leftists are the ones accused of treating people like property

heh

Jesurgislac said...

You're insane.

A child abuser calls me insane?

I had no role in her decision.

What, you can say certainly and definitely that you'd always explained to your daughter and to her friends that if they got pregnant under an age when it was safe for them to have the baby - fifteen, for example - the right thing to do was to have an abortion? Or did your spew your hateful poison about child abuse in their trusting ears till that poor kid sincerely thought that she shouldn't take care of herself and terminate that pregnancy?

kac90b said...

... Abortions are morally (majority) suspect

Glad you could decide the great national debate with one really stupid comment.

In fact, I haven't seen so much cluelessness in one spot since the last time I was dragged to church.

kac90b said...

ah, a member of the "better off dead" club.

and non-leftists are the ones accused of treating people like property

heh


It is not an issue of "better off dead."

"Non-leftists" (like you, I presume?) seem to think it's a zero sum game, and you're generally too damn stupid to argue with. I'm sure sure you thought that banging that 15-year old pregnant girl with your twisted sense of "morals" was the right thing to do, but heaven help you if you ever tried such a thing on my daughter.

Twat.

Darleen said...

You have a daughter?

I feel sorry for her having to put up with someone who is both delusional (cannot read properly) and thinks children are pieces of property to be disposed of like an empty latte cup.

The more you pro-abortionists wax orgasmic about the wonder and beauty of forcing your teen daughters into abortion clincs against their will, -- or in jesur's case, supporting abortion in order to keep the supply of willing to have sex teens available for his/her personal pleasure -- the more you reveal the paucity of your "philosophy".

twatwaffle

Darleen said...

Majority of abortions are done in the first trimester
Majority of abortions are done for non-medical reasons
Majority of abortions are, therefore, done for morally suspect reasons.

The majority of abortions are legal, but legal doesn't equal moral.

Jesurgislac said...

Majority of abortions are done in the first trimester
Majority of abortions are done for non-medical reasons
Majority of abortions are, therefore, done for morally suspect reasons.


And yet, you claim you had nothing to do with the "decision" that poor kid who needed an abortion for medical reasons made - to risk her life, her health, her ability to have children in the future, and her emotional well-being now, by having a baby instead of a first-trimester abortion?

You fail, Darleen. That girl needed help, and you were a child abuser.

Jesurgislac said...

Oh, and typical projection, Darleen - you admit casually to committing child abuse, encouraging a child to have a baby, in a way that suggests you have in the past received praise and approval for this act of child abuse.

Now you want to cover your sins by flailing accusations of child molestation. From a confessed and admitted child abuser, Darleen, that's just kind of stupid. You've admitted your sin. You didn't see anything wrong with harming a child in that way. Now you're beginning to feel the guilt, the burn of knowing what you did wrong. So you attempt to push it off on to someone else. It's disgustingly self-centered of you, Darleen. The child you abused is the one you should be thinking of, not your own need to cover up your abuse of her.

Darleen said...

jesur the ephebophile,

Just keep lying about my involvement with my daughter's friend. You're desperate flailings to distract from yourself only underline my assessment of your moral, even criminal, character.

Melissa, maybe you ought to trap and hold jesur's IP address. There might be some law enforcement agencies, like the one I work for, that might take an interest in jesur.

Melissa Clouthier said...

Darleen,

I gave up on following the comment section a couple days ago. Ha! At a certain point, the abortion debate is futile. I purposefully used the words "believe in abortion" because many progressive feminists treat the "procedure" as a doctrine and a major tenet of a religion. As such, even implying that there should be fewer abortions or that people who use them as birth control are irresponsible is anathema. Abortion is a fixed belief. To not believe, is to "sin".

Anonymous said...

Hey, we could always illegalize abortion and make our country look more like Nigeria or Nicaraugua.
I mean those are awesome moral paradises where women and children thrive.
Right? Oh yeah... not so much.

Anonymous said...

Melissa is from The Woodlands? That explains everything!

Jesurgislac said...

Melissa: As such, even implying that there should be fewer abortions or that people who use them as birth control are irresponsible is anathema.

Oh, for crying out loud. Of course there should be fewer abortions. By ensuring everyone has access to good sex education and contraception.

It's never irresponsible of a woman to decide to terminate a pregnancy when she knows she can't care for the child.

It is criminally irresponsible for governments, medical establishments, and parents, to deny contraception. Freely available contraception, and the knowledge how to use it, is the best preventer of abortion.

One of the most horrific aspects of this thread, besides Darleen's horrible story about how a 15-year-old child was abused (forced pregnancy is child abuse) with Darleen's enthusiastic approval, is Darleen's enthusiastic and sticky suggestion that people who want to prevent abortion are child molesters. She herself is self-confessedly guilty of child abuse. But she tries to imply with rather obvious and stupid threats, that giving kids access to contraception and the knowledge how to use it and the right to safeguard their health and wellbeing by having an abortion, is tantamount to sexual molestation.

So long as that attitude prevails in the US, the US will continue to have the highest rate of teen pregnancy and childbirth in the developed world, because irresponsible, abusive adults like Darleen prefer teenage girls to have babies. As she admits herself, several times.

This is a fairly obvious attempt to shut down discussion - you notice Darleen has not once said a word of blame about the father of this baby. And it's succeeded. I won't back. But Melissa: if you genuinely want to prevent abortions, Darleen is your opponent. Not Amanda Marcotte or any other pro-choice activist.

Darleen said...

Isn't it strange that the pro-abortion advocates, like jesur, would be very very happy if my story had been the reverse ... ie my daughter's friend had defied her parents to have an abortion. Oh my, what a mature decision against godbotherers she would have made!

But no, she decided to finally break free of their years of parental neglect and also found the courage to extract her self from a poor co-dependency relationship with a boy her age .. a relationship that had been enabled by her parents who saw nothing really wrong with them having sex (and who provided her with condoms).

So we are really confronted with jesur and ilk's not so transparent agenda. Teens should never be discouraged from sex, girls should be provided, maybe even forced, to take oral contraceptives (note that jesur sneers at condoms and never is worried about STDs - just more evidence of jesur's view of young girls as pleasure property).

Any rational person can see that jesur and ilk are just not interested in a woman's decision unless it is for abortion.

Free abortions for all! Forced abortions for teens!

Darleen said...

btw

Pro-choice is not pro-abortion, which jesur has revealed about him/herself.

Amanda is not a pro-choicer. Like jesur, Amanda doesn't believe in adoption. Amanda believes a woman's default position on any pregnancy that doesn't fall into very very narrow parameters should be abortion. She doesn't believe in marriage, either. She believes that any woman who believes in marriage or family is allowing men to own their vagina.

Amanda just rents hers out.

Anonymous said...

I am a 39 year old man. I have had at least three girlfriends have abortions (that I know of). My 17 year old son has already had a pregnant girlfriend abort a child. I don't regret those abortions and I know, for a fact, that the woman who had them don't either. The ultimate "selfish" decision, imo, is for a woman who is reluctant to fully carry out the responsibilities of parenting bring a child into the world because abortion is "icky" or "repugnant." I am also a divorce attorney and a father of three, healthy, well adjusted children (one of whom I gave up for adoption when I was 17 and in high school) and I have seen, both personally and professionally, the consequences when reluctant women and men have children they are not able or willing to properly care for.

Anonymous said...

um, should be "women" in the third sentence. sorry.

Anonymous said...

ok, sorry, fourth sentence.

Darleen said...

I am a 39 year old man. I have had at least three girlfriends have abortions (that I know of). My 17 year old son has already had a pregnant girlfriend abort a child.

Looks like your son has learned how to be an exploiter just like dear old scummy dad.

Congratulations. You must be SO proud.

Anonymous said...

Of course I would have preferred that he exercised better judgment and used contraception. I should have also. But no one was "exploited" unless you have changed the word's meaning beyond comprehension. Consenting adults may make choices to do things with their bodies that you abhor, but, in a liberal democracy, that is how it must be. Each of the women referred to in my comment voluntarily chose to have an abortion. I don't understand why you feel better to be repulsed by those choices, but do as you see fit.

Anonymous said...

And, Darleen, your comment reveals that your concern is, as always with people of your ilk, less about the lives of actual, living children, and the blastocyst. You would have me "hate" my son, because he is an immoral "exploiter" and hate myself for my own behavior. You prefer that we are shunned and shamed. Would you like to throw stones at me? Burn us? Should the women who had the abortions be charged with first degree murder? Put to death by lethal injection? Is my son an accessory to murder? Am I? Please, Darleen, grow up.

Anonymous said...

Too angry to use preview. Should be: "And, Darleen, your comment reveals that your concern is, as always with people of your ilk, less about the lives of actual, living children than the blastocyst."

Darleen said...

anon

You have admitted to three abortions and one adoption.

1 or 2 oopsies, maybe, but at least 4? And you never learned to use a condom? And unless your son was having unprotected sex with a girl 18 or over, yeah, I'd put him on the exploitive pathway, too.

You know, a person doesn't DIE from chosing not to have sex -- especially if one is not prepared to engage in it responsibly.

What informs your values that females are put here for your sexual pleasure without any concern for what might happen to them or the nascent human life you might be creating?

Darleen said...

2nd Anon

Again, I am concerned about how exploitive sex IS harming living breathing people - especially young women. 1 in 4 teens has suffered an STD. Multiple partners at an early age = cervical abnormalities.

The "promiscuity is great because you can just get rid of any inconvenient consequence" is the biggest fraud the Free Love Boomers ever foisted upon the culture. Just as TANSTAAFL, so There Ain't No Such Thing As Free Sex.

Funny, you would probably throw your hands in horror if people were telling teens it is ok to smoke cigarettes as much as they wanted, just use filters and get a lung xray once a year, but you have no problems in encouraging promiscuous sex.

You have some serious Daddy issues. Seek help.

Darleen said...

Jaysus on a Pony, Anon

Don't hate your son, PARENT him for god's sake! Don't let him use women like so much kleenex to catch ejaculations like you have.

Darleen said...

that should be

1 in 4 teen GIRLS suffered from an STD.

And let's toss how abortion might affect a girl's future fertility into the mix, too.

Sex is not a good choice for teens.

Let your kid know that masturbation is a wise choice and to keep his hands (and other parts) off girls.

Anonymous said...

God, Darleen, your view of women as free moral agents is so dim. I wonder why that is...Why do you hate consensual sex? I guess you answered my question, you do want to stone us (at least men, you seem to have an exception for women).

Darleen said...

Anon

I think you should follow the first rule of holes.

Consensual sex between adults isn't even on my radar. I'm just not interested in people's private, consenting sex lives.
To PRETEND that your 4 admitted irresponsible sexploits are not indicative of your problematic view of women is risible.

Criticizing gluttony is not telling people to starve. Criticizing gossip is not censorship. Criticizing exploitive relationships is not anti-consensual sex.

Certainly women are moral agents. But it goes to YOU when you admit 4 times of refusing to use a condom with 4 different women. It speaks to your cavalier attitude where it concerns your partner's well being.

You got issues, dude.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the exchange Darlene. I now know you really do know what's best for me. I'll take your advice and get some help for my issues!

Darleen said...

yeah, you do that now, y'hear.

Yeah, that's the ticket.

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